There is an interesting excerpt from Maureen Dowd's new book in today's New York Times Magazine. Her major premise seems to be that relationships between men and women seem to be devolving rather than evolving due to a man's biological/evolutionary need to take care of someone and a woman's biological need to be taken care of.



The article got me to thinking about relationships between gay men and about the power and equality dynamics in such relationships. While we might all like to prescribe to the notion that gay relationships (or any romantic relationship for that matter) must be forged between equals, the reality is one that is far from this truth. If men truly have an innate need to take of someone else, then in gay relationships, whose need is the one getting met and how is that decided?



Thinking on that, I do not think this is an easy issue between gay men in Western society. Regardless of the money and power each partner brings to the realtionship, it still seems difficult for many Western gay men to accept any hint of inequality in terms of money and/or power; likewise, being taken care of by one's partner, over time, erodes the self-worth of the other partner because he is somehow not meeting his needs to be a caregiver and/or meeting Western society's notion of what it means to be a man.



I know in my own relationship that one of the lasting joys is that I do have someone in my life to care for. As Jack and I move past the stage of infatuation and giddy romantic love, there seems to be a deeper more abiding replacement for it based on the very real emotional needs we meet for each other: mine being a need to have someone constant in my life to care for, and his to have someone constant in his life to take care of him.



I know this sends alarm bells ringing in the heads of the cynics, but if Maureen Dowd is trumpeting this same idea in the New York Times as being worthy for opposite-sex partners, why is it so horrifying for same sex-partners? Frankly, I think it speaks to the insecurities that many gay men have in our youth and image obssessed queer culture (insecurities that many on this Board seem to buy into): mainly, that we must be loved and love in return only for our bodies and nothing more.



I do not pretend to have much knowledge or insight into Thai culture other than the little I learn from my bf and my Thai friends. However, one thing that seems common is that patronage is alive and well in LOS, and that many seek not a relationship of equals, but a patronage relationship. Young gay Thai men seem to me to be victims of this patronage system as lifetime same sex partners in LOS do not seem commonplace and because the Thai social heirarchy seems to preclude young gay Thai men much place in the patronage system.



I have always known my bf was more comfortable on many levels in a relationship with a farang because it allowed him to create something outside his country's social system while at the same time allowing him to be a part of it. After all, for a gay Thai man, what better way to fit into a patronage system than to have richer, older farang take care of him? I think it is something most in his society can understand. A realtionship with a farang also cuts through all the issues surrounding social standing within the relationship and allows a young man who is both gay and poor to gain face and a better and happier life.



I think that for many gay Western men, LOS is a great place to find a partner because it allows them to find someone to care for in a society where it is readily accepted that one should seek out a partner who can care for him (unlike in the West where there seems to be societal pressure for gay male relationships to be strictly between equals--as if such a thing as true equals actually exists). I think if viewed correctly, it is a win-win for both the Thai and the farang in the relationship.



Pete  

    

Edited by: pete1969 at: 31/10/05 7:44 am

Thai Boys 101: Parenting For Gay Farang Men.



With my x-bf the age gap was "only" ten years. I saw him as a younger brother. I wanted equality and since he was from a rich Thai family I didn't feel obliged to "take care" of him. He was 23 when we met and he had his university degree already.



With my current bf the age gap is double and he was 18 when we met. I was older and the father role came naturally.



I read once that humans have different life development phases. The final and most mature is the caregiver or the parent role. In this phase you pass on what was given to you when you were young. For this you must have developed empathy and the ability to give because you identify with the younger person and his needs.



I read that you don't have your own children you can achieve the phase by getting involved with someone younger who needs you to help.



Does it matter if the Thai boy loves you as a boyfriend in the Western sense or as a father figure? It is still affection.



In Asia there are a zillion young men who wants to be "taken care of". I am not sure if they ever outgrow it. We talk a lot about the money but "take care" is a lot more. It is emotional support, advice and taking responsibility. It is to be a good role model. I get to use my formerly dormant parental instinct. I enjoy it.  

Interesting post, Peter! - worthy of a Hedda Award for Excellence.

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because it allowed him to create something outside his country's social system while at the same time allowing him to be a part of it.

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Can you clarify what you mean here? Do you mean create something material or in terms of a relationship? Are you suggesting that there is a degree of scizophrenia here? The Thai bound to the traditions of his society and yet desiring new experiences - travel, money, a taste of the West? If so I think you've hit the nail on the head - the patron is a very convenient and very well understood model by which to explain this unsettling union. If you seek to suggest that a farang can truly occupy this role then I think that you are wrong.



Thai society is of course very structured - you absolutely must have a place or confusion and discord abound. The farang boyfriend can be explained away in this sense as it satisfies the needs of society and the mental needs of the individual. This prevents discord - it is however a convenience and not bona fide. You have something that is wanted and the Thai needs to relate to you - he does this through the ancient and powerful role of the patron ( poo oop pa ka ra - can't remember ?)



Do you think that the farang is now assimilated? That mainstream Thai society now has offered you an accepted and understood role that you may now occupy in comfort? No, m'dear. Eyes left on the BTS - no conflict, no stares but no acceptance either! The smiling shop assistant? Now what does that smile really mean?



A farang boyfriend may be accepted into the immediate family and the wealth that he brings may be welcomed - but the social device that is used is really a compromise. Compromise is what makes Thai society work, and this is why it is so perplexing and yet so very strong.



That's my two satangs on the subject for what it's worth   

Thanks all of you for your thoughtful writing on this complex subject.



There is certainly a powerful theme of wanting to be looked after/taken care of by the young Thai men on the scene who are gay and come from poor backgrounds.



My own boyfriend is very clear that he wants me to take care of him, and that does mean money and opportunities to travel etc.



But there is a real exchange here. He takes care of me in so many ways, mostly fulfilling my emotional need to be loved by someone and to have someone to love, as well as my sexual needs. I do not think I could cope with a long distance relationship indefinitely. The future depends on him getting a visa to live in the UK with me. And I shall do everything in my power to make that happen.



The power is balanced out I think. Money and age and status on my side are balanced by the power of youth, attraction and love. Who has the greatest power here???  

pOWER Of youth? I always dump the bastards when they get past 21yo.

My bf regularly tells me that one of the reasons he likes me  is that he can discuss 'things' with me that he simply can't talk about with other Thais. I'm not quite what these 'things' are because, as far as I'm concerned, we don't talk about anything that I wouldn't normally talk about but it seems very important to him.

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Who has the greatest power here???

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It all depends on you - if you listen to the air head romantics you'll become another statistic.

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I do not think I could cope with a long distance relationship indefinitely.

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So why didn't you listen to Thrope before and take that job at Bumrungrad Hospital? This way you would be able to get to grips with the grim reality, and not drown in an emotional fantasy world courtesy of the Pattaya bar scene.



Beware Rich - many have trodden this path before, and only the rich stand a chance of survival.  You are setting 'orf on a pathway of emotional drama and financial strain - in the end I bet you'll end up moving to Thailand.



What do you imagine life will be like for you and your dependent in the UK? That is if he gets a visa - which is not very likely. The honeymoon period will soon be over, and your dependent will get bored and be off into the night or get very stroppy. He is an uneducated rural Thai and whatever his motives the schism is already there - if you are thinking that everything will be a bed of roses... then you are very wrong.



If you had taken Thrope's advice and taken your redunancy as an opportunity to explore what Thailand is really all about then you'd have stood a better chance. The answer to your original question is that HE has the power and you are like a puppet on a string.



BTW Thrope is fond of you on the basis of a past exchange of messages and isn't trying to piss on your chips - I'm worried for you. Just remeber what I've said in the months to come.



Best of luck, m'dear.







 

Goldensyrup, that is wonderful and it's no mystery! A poor, rural Thai boy may be uneducated, but that doesn't mean he is unintelligent or incapable of being stimulated by conversation that is not limited by the bounds of his own class, his gay peers and the country he happens to have been born in. (I have to admit, of course, that you don't tell us anything about his origins; I'm just assuming...) Anyway, I have the impression that Thai society at any level is pretty inward-looking (and we all know the limitations of gay chat as such!!), so what could be more wonderful than your input from the wider world? It also occurs to me that the hierarchical character of much in Thai society may mean that an uneducated youngster never gets to talk to an older person on an equal footing of 'I think this. What do you think?'.



You may not be aware of it, but what you talk about is no doubt rich in subjects, viewpoints, information and judgements that are new to him and set him thinking. In that sense, at least, it's difficult to think of anything that could be more exciting to a bright lad than your conversation. Your 'foreigness' is for him much more than the money and 'patronage' that we hear so much about in discussion of why a Thai boy might enjoy the company of a Westerner, even an older one. It's heartening to read of but not surprising to someone like myself who has been professionally concerned for most of his life with stimulating the minds of young people. They're dying for it to happen!



He's a lucky lad and probably realises it. Just don't let him make you too self-conscious! It's clearly the real you he likes.

Edited by: piston10 at: 31/10/05 5:57 pm

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so what could be more wonderful than your input from the wider world?

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A chance in life without having to prostitute his being to a sad old farang?

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Your 'foreigness' is for him much more than the money and 'patronage' that we hear so much about

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  - Yes, dear - they are all gagging to learn about the world from a old has been who washed up in Pattaya! You have so much to give! Give! - you'll give alright!  

Miss Thrope, not one of your better nights - or whatever time of the day it happens to be where you are. You sometimes make very good points, but are so obsessed with prostitution and what you perceive as the hedonism and decadence of gay life (which in my opinion is no more hedonistic and decadent than life in general) that you end up by denying every possibility that doesn't fit your agenda.



You are beginning to get like Yimsuai, the Misunderstood Pussy, who always brings to my mind the silly tongue-twister we enjoyed so much in primary school because it had a rude word in it: The cat crept into the crypt, crapped, and crept out again.

Edited by: piston10 at: 31/10/05 6:06 pm

I'm neither old nor a has been, Thrope. Nor do I frequent Pattaya. I leave that to misanthropic old burgers like you.

 

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Miss Thrope, not one of your better nights

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Doctor Thrope! I am not associated with that impostor letter writer at SticyRice!



What profound insights do you hold for the average Isaan Farmer Boy?



Those insights being conditional on him providing sexual and/or emotional relief to you? Bugger all, m'dear! Who wants to hear about your coffee stained opinions gleaned from The Spectator or the Weekly Telegraph! Perhaps you imagine that he craves the insight of a warrior who has known a pre-Wolfenden world - I think not, m'dear. The only thing you have to offer is money. Wisdom?  Please! You have nothing in common and are drawn togther through the following:



(i) mental abberation

(ii) fiscal difference



I only ask that you accept what you are - nothing more. I am sorry that you choose the path of self deception ...wake up and stop fooling yourself.

And the only thing you have to have to offer is bile, you whining old ratbag.



 

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And the only thing you have to have to offer is bile, you whining old ratbag.

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Good point whoever you are - I can't be fagged to read your latest incarnation.



Thrope actually offers insight, and is full of compassion for those that get sucked into the great entertainment machine that some call Thailand. Thailand is an amazing place, but is full of danger for the naive - we only seek to warn those that still have a couple of brain cells left.



Oh dear ....no he doesn't want you for your kind heart - he wants your wallet. Is that so hard to understand? The fog of Sawatdee, and the mutual reassurance that it gives will never end those doubts - or will they? Give in - there really is a paradise on earth where young men seek dreary old queens who can't make it back home. Welcome to Thailand - farang version

Edited by: Dr Anne Thrope at: 31/10/05 7:49 pm

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 It also occurs to me that the hierarchical character of much in Thai society may mean that an uneducated youngster never gets to talk to an older person on an equal footing of 'I think this. What do you think?'.



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You had me up until this point.



NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER, EVER have I heard a Thai person ask, "What do you think?"



They are NOT taught to think. They are not encouraged to think. Thinking is a BAD thing. My BF has said to me mant many times, " You think too much."



Also, " I think this..." is discouraged. Having an opinion means having to think about something...THINKING IS BAD. I once taught a class of adults where I was trying to get them to express an OPINION about a topic.The lesson was about telling the difference between fact and opinion. I finally said to them, after much hard work, " You have to have an opinion about something!" And one man replied, " Why? Why must I have an opinon about global warming, or American foreign policy or anything? You westerners think too much. You have to have an opinion about everything and you have to tell it to everyone. In Thailand we don't have to have strong opinions about anything. It's not polite." At that point I ended the class.



One of the most heartbreaking things about my time living and teaching in Thailand is how Thai people discourage their children from being curious and asking questions. IMHO it borders on abuse of their minds.



ajarntrade