You know Anne, your first two posts on this thread were very untroll like and actually engaged in a level of discourse and debate for which you so obviously have the talents, but which you seem to so seldom have the  inclination. I wonder why this is. Is this Board some amusement for you where all discourse must give way to petty insults and silly flames? You want to denigrate others on this thread for being sad old farangs,but a man with your obvious talents having to always traffic in such tired antics as you do make me wonder who is really the sad one of the lot. I hope you amuse yourself with your very juvenile behaviour because I doubt it really amuses anyone else on this Board. It is sad really because with the demise of Hedda, Harlan, ZZZ, and RichLB (among others) our community could use more posters like yourself who exhibit the talents  and the free time to be such a formidable contributor.



I will say, that I for one, have no hope or desire of being part of the Thai social heirarchy. I know my place as an outsider. I spoke of my bf being both outside the system and operating inside of it due to his being gay. Finding a Thai patron as a gay man in LOS is a bit more difficult than if one were a young female. However, attracting a farang patron allows a young gay man to adhere to his societal systems and beat a bit of criticism thrown at him due to his sexuality; after all, according to his countrymen, it is only natural for him to seek a partner that can help care for him.



I do happen to agree with Anne, tricky Rich, that this sort of relationship does take the willingness to spend money. There is a question of monthly allowance, travel expenses, and more. Also, it is highly unlikely that your Thai bf will live with you permanently in the UK. Visit, yes. Live forever, most probably not.



Anne, I wonder why you and others on this Board are so sure that gay relationships involving a farang and a Thai are possible only because the farang is a willing victim. I do agree that power in such relationships is an interesting dynamic and an endless topic of debate; however, I think most successful relationships between Thai and farang involve a more equal distribution of power than we might want to think.



I also might agree that many Western men who find Thai bfs might not be able to find such a beautiful partner at home. Our queer culture in the West does not encourage such. However, why can't gay men in the East have a different perspective? And regardless, why should anyone pass up the opportunity to find some happiness in a relationship just to appease critics who say he is being used or is a tired old queen who can't find such a relationship at home? It may or may not be true, but who cares if one can find a bit of happiness in the one life he knows for sure he gets in this world? If gay men went around trying to make everyone else happy with their relationship choices, then in a world full of bigots and religious fanatics, none of us would ever be happy at all.



Last, I wonder if those like Anne might be willing to tell us of their own current successful relationships with young beautiful Western men or even their own current relationships of a totally equal footing with young Asian men. It could prove instructive and insigtful for all of us poor pathetic suckers in relationships of our own.



Pete            

You took the words right out of my big mouth, Pete!



When I was seventeen, an older, 'occassional' lover who has remained a lifelong friend and mentor told me: "If you wait till all conditions are perfect before you act (Do something you want to do.) you will never do it."  Applied in a broader sense: If one were to constantly worry about what others think (Before taking action), he might never do anything.  How sad and dreary.



No one ever said life is perfect.  Some of us learn to make the best of it. Others play poor-mans' Cassandra, bitch about it--andor hand out caustic advice.  If I'd taken such jaded advice thirty-five years ago, today I'd be poor--And alone.  But I love to read such admonitions; makes me realize how lucky I am.  My life may have often been just a bowl of...pits but there have been peaches--That have made it all worthwhile.  I could have chosen door #1:  The possible heartbreak of finding out he was a gold digger or door #2: that he might have a heart of gold.  I chose door #2 every time.  I've never been sorry--Though I met many zonks along the way...said, "bye-bye." cried five minutes--and opened another door.



On bringing the boyfriend home--And Thai (Boy) (learned)opinions:  (I've told this before so stop if you've heard it.)   

A friend, Cjack, was taken to Europe by a farang 'patron.'

I asked him how he liked it.  He said he loved it, very pretty, very clean--But snow, while pretty, is very cold--But, no problem, farang bought him boots and a down jacket.

He went on to say, "Oh,  It opened my eyes."

"How so?" I asked.

"Farang(Throughout, he politely made no observation on the 'state' of the farang.)," he said, "Come to Pattaya, go to go-go bars; sit there talking to each other, 'That boy has crooked teeth, this one...funny legs, number 30...small koi, number 10 too short and flat nose, him...too much pancake....'  We went to a bar in farangs' home town; young men walked by as though he...was not there!--But many smile at me.  Funny: some farang tell me they think I am too ugly (He clarified: not handsome enough.) to go working in a go-go bar."



 

Edited by: Edith at: 1/11/05 7:39 am

I agree with Pete and Edith, please heir Doctor.. Tell us poor tired old queens who can't find such a relationship at home about YOUR perfect life and perfect relationships?



 

Woody Allen says his relationship with wife Soon-Yi Previn, which has a "more paternal feeling," is "one of the truly lucky things that happened to me in my life".



Woody Allen lucky in love

 

pete1969 and ajarntrade, thanks so much for your two most recent posts, lodged at just the moment some new voices were needed. Truth to tell, I was getting a bit irritable and weary. When you get involved in these SWT tornadoes, as you know, you get whirled round and it's sometimes a bit difficult to keep your sense of direction. I know that I would not at present have been able to hit the calm and balanced tone of pete's wise contribution. Just what was needed! I was dreading having to unravel the misrepresentation and cheap jibes of Thrope's latest, in which poor goldensyrup and I seem to have been amalgamated into a single target. Don't worry, GS, most of the rude bits were about me! Pete's post makes it clear why any attempt at unravelling was quite unnecessary. I'm learning all the time.



I don't think there's any serious issue between ajarntrade and myself. I have not his experience, but I have the impression that this difference in approach to thinking and opinion is one of the deepest cultural divides between Asia and the West. I heard of it years ago when an acquaintance was lecturing in English literature at a Japanese university. Trained to see the central activity of his trade as presenting poems, novels and plays and discussing them with his pupils, he complained that a seminar or a lecture was a solid hour of his own voice, every word copied down by the students, followed by a smiling, bowing and backward exit through the door. Intellectual death in the interests of politeness!



In surprising contrast, a close friend of mine who worked in Singapore during the late 80s and 90s reported to me that he had not come across this problem; I met some of his former pupils on occasions when they travelled to the UK for holidays or to study, and I can vouch that their attitude to difference of opinion and discussion was no different from ours in the West. Odd for a country that is so well-known for its imposition of conformity? Then again, my friend was a brilliant and charismatic teacher, superb at giving pupils confidence, and maybe he achieved a personal cultural breakthrough that has no general application. I know he was much admired by his Singaporean pupils - and much feared by the educational authorities there!



Anyway, my point in the post to goldensyrup was not meant to be absolute. Having no dead-set against the "Issan-Farmer-Boy-turned-PROSTITUTE" (ugh!), I wanted to suggest that, in the relaxed context of a relationship, the opportunity to express his ideas and to hear the ideas of his partner might very well be attractive to a Thai boy - and that doesn't mean to all Thai boys. Part of my answer to those on the forum whose only satisfaction seems to be to close down possibilites, in the name of realism or greater experience. I therefore, ajarntrade, have to resist a little your rather adamant 'NEVER, NEVER, EVER, EVER'. The words,I understand, describe your experience, but they come over powerfully as a limitation on our expectations. I say 'You never know', and perhaps you reply 'Pigs might fly!', but the difference doesn't set us much apart.



A final oddity, ajarntrade. I seem to remember your saying exactly this when we met! Well, perhaps we didn't; but I recall distinctly hearing your points made in almost exactly the same terms and with personal conviction in an anonymous and short conversation with someone last February while sitting one morning at the table outside the main entrance of Tarntawan Place. If it wasn't you, be warned: there's someone moving round Thailand who has got hold of your script! (Please, please: this is not an attempt to identify you, so don't feel ANY pressure to deny or confirm and don't feel bad about totally ignoring the matter. We shall probably never meet again, anyway - it's just rather funny!)

Edited by: piston10 at: 1/11/05 6:39 pm

It wasn't me.



But my opinion on this matter of Thai people not having a thought in their heads is NOT unusual, many foreigners to Thailand are aware of this fact.



In America women joke that the worst thing you can ask a man is, " What are you thinking?" Because most always the answer is, "Nothing". And the answer is correct, there may be absolutley nothing going on in that man's head.  Well, in Thailand the answer is almost always... "Nothing" also.



Some might say that Thai people are stupid. Or to put it more politley, intellectually stagnant. I don't go that far... but from many experiences having lived in this country for more than 2 years now, I'm getting closer to that conclusion.



Several months ago I was ordering the American breakfast at Coffee Society on Silom Rd. It comes with coffee or tea. I wanted a Diet Coke instead of a coffee or a tea. If they gave me the Diet Coke it would save the business 5 baht. The price for coffee or tea is higher than a Diet Coke. I had to argue and practically fight with the less than intellegent worker there to get a Diet Coke!!!! Just one of the MANY MANY little frustrations of living in this country.



ajarntrade

Quote:

---

Several months ago I was ordering the American breakfast at Coffee Society on Silom Rd. It comes with coffee or tea. I wanted a Diet Coke instead of a coffee or a tea. If they gave me the Diet Coke it would save the business 5 baht. The price for coffee or tea is higher than a Diet Coke. I had to argue and practically fight with the less than intellegent worker there to get a Diet Coke!!!! Just one of the MANY MANY little frustrations of living in this country.

---

I have given up trying to change any set meal in a restaurant. I have tried, for example, to say I don't want tea/coffee with the American breakfast, the juice that comes with it is enough. This should have the restaurant money but it doesn't work. The waiter gets confused and the tea/coffee arrives anyway.



Thais are thought to do things in a certain way. They are not allowed to change anything, or to take initiative. Go with the flow and don't protest. I accept the tea and leave it untouched.