In several threads, gay pride in several countries and gay activists have ben mentioned. They are many out there still fighting for rights and recognition. This is a report from sundays press

Protesters attack gay marchers, police



July 6, 2008 - 10:16AM [midnight GMT]


Dozens of protesters clashed with police escorting a march by gays and lesbians through the centre of Budapest, and two officers were injured and at least 45 demonstrators detained, police say.

The protesters pelted the marchers with eggs, bottles and rocks, and threw cobblestones and Molotov cocktails at police, setting fire to a police van.

Police used water cannon and tear gas to disperse the protesters at several points along Andrassy Road, a boulevard in downtown Budapest.

At least 45 protesters were detained and two police officers injured, police spokeswoman Eva Tafferner said.

Katalin Levai, a Hungarian member of the European Parliament, told state news wire MTI protesters broke the window of a police car she was riding in, along with Gabor Szetey, a former state secretary who last year became the first Hungarian government official to announce he was gay.

Levai and Szetey took part in the gay march and were leaving the area near Heroes' Square in the police car when it was attacked. No injuries were reported in the car.

The "Dignity March" organised by gay groups began at one end of the boulevard, while the protesters gathered at the opposite end and at other intersections along the way.

Police tried to protect the march by setting up high metal barriers on both sides of the road and restricted access to the areas where the march took place.

Most of the clashes took place at Heroes' Square, a large open space at the edge of City Park, where a monument to historic Hungarian leaders is flanked by two arts museums.

Skirmishes between the protesters and police lasted at least three hours before appearing to wind down by about 7pm (0300 AEST Sunday).

Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them. A gay bar and a massage parlour were attacked with Molotov cocktails, but no one was injured and little damage was done to the buildings.

The protesters, many of them from ultra-nationalist groups, said the gay march was "disgusting" and "shameful," and they vowed to "clean up the filth."

Beginning next January, all Hungarians involved in long-term relationships will be allowed to register their partnerships and enjoy some of the benefits of married couples, such as inheriting from each other. This will apply to heterosexuals and gays

lonelywombat wrote:

The "Dignity March" organised by gay groups began at one end of the boulevard, while the protesters gathered at the opposite end and at other intersections along the way.

Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate (sic!) several recent attacks against them.

Sounds like one group of extremist bigots looking for a fight with another group of extremist bigots. A productive day for all, apparently.

Gone Fishing wrote:

lonelywombat wrote:

The "Dignity March" organised by gay groups began at one end of the boulevard, while the protesters gathered at the opposite end and at other intersections along the way.

Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate (sic!) several recent attacks against them.

Sounds like one group of extremist bigots looking for a fight with another group of extremist bigots. A productive day for all, apparently.

You are calling homosexuals looking to highlight prejudice and anti gay violence "extremists bigots"?! That's really an arsehole comment.

FYI two gay venues were firebombed in Budapest recently, and the fascists were announcing that they planned to "drive homosexuals into the Danube", as the Nazis did to the Jews in Budapest. And you equate the two groups...........?

Watch BBC news report:

news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7491830.stm

Although I admire your fortitude Brad haven't you figured out that G.F. is always right about everything. He is all knowing, all seeing. You, as we all, should be honored to be able to share the same bandwidth with him. The sooner you accept this and bow down to his unparalleled knowledge and superior intellect the sooner you can stop bashing your head against the wall. Alternatively just put the pedantic blow hard on ignore.

Brad the Impala wrote:

You are calling homosexuals looking to highlight prejudice and anti gay violence "extremists bigots"?! That's really an arsehole comment.

No, I am calling the Budapest rally organizers that, based on what was widely reported to be given by the organisers as one reason for their  marching, nothing more and nothing less:Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them.

According to that report, and to similar ones, the organizers were aiming for a confrontation ("looking for a fight"). Your motivation may have been different, even commendable, and your version of events may differ to that reported, but as they were not reported in the press I do not know.

Your analogy to the Jews and their treatment by the Nazis, while likely to raise sympathy, is totally groundless ("disingenuous", if you prefer). The Jews were persecuted by the Nazi regime, the national Government, with laws and policies designed to segregate and to remove them. Homosexuals in Hungary, on the other hand, face no discriminatory laws or legislation; in fact legislation due to be enacted next year gives a same sex couple living together identical rights to a married couple - as liberal as any country.

The prejudice and violence gays in Hungary are protesting about is caused by an extremely small minority of ultra-right nationalists who are breaking the law (45 were arrested at the march), although prior to the march there have been no reports of personal injuries and a minimal amount of property damage as a result of the attacks. Their support, however, is growing as they are able to stir up nationalist feelings by finding enemies to concentrate on: economically and politically the Soviet Union is an obvious target. Culturally, homosexuals are an easy target, made considerably easier by the presence of what they can readily identify as foreign "agitators" who they identify as trying to force foreign values and culture on the Hungarians - in other words, people like you. You may have been there " to highlight prejudice and anti gay violence " and to show solidarity with your fellow homosexuals, but the net result of a visible foreign presence in the march was to add weight to the nationalists' arguments - the opposite of what you presumably intended.  

The difference between being a bigot and being misguided is sometimes a fine one - no more so than when you feel the term is applied to you.

Once in a While,

Unlike you I do not claim to be an expert ("there is little you can teach me on that subject")or even knowledgeable on most subjects here, and rely instead on ensuring that I am well informed and base my posts on available and verifiable information which anyone can check and, if they wish, refute. If that offends you and you prefer to be abusive or to ignore me, so be it.  Brad is more than capable of defending his corner and standing up for what he believes in without your intervention.  


أحْمَق خدا حاف

[quote="Gone Fishing"]

No, I am calling the Budapest rally organizers that, based on what was widely reported to be given by the organisers as one reason for their  marching, nothing more and nothing less:Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them.

The parade was planned over six months ago. It is an annual event, which has been going on for twelve years, and only the parade last year and this have been the recipients of violent assault.


According to that report, and to similar ones, the organizers were aiming for a confrontation ("looking for a fight"). Your motivation may have been different, even commendable, and your version of events may differ to that reported, but as they were not reported in the press I do not know.

Please give your source for these quotations, as no report that I have read refers to the gay parade organizers "looking for confrontation" or a "fight". Rather the reverse that because of the ramped up threats this year, the parade was shorter and less well attended than last year.


Your analogy to the Jews and their treatment by the Nazis, while likely to raise sympathy, is totally groundless ("disingenuous", if you prefer). The Jews were persecuted by the Nazi regime, the national Government, with laws and policies designed to segregate and to remove them. Homosexuals in Hungary, on the other hand, face no discriminatory laws or legislation; in fact legislation due to be enacted next year gives a same sex couple living together identical rights to a married couple - as liberal as any country.

The analogy was based on the fact that the fascist threat, documented as a rallying call to "nationalists"/homophobes by one of the organizing groups, to drive the perverts into the Danube had direct reference to the Jews driven into the Danube. An action which is commemorated in Hungary on a daily basis by the old shoes that are left in a symbolic gesture on the banks of the Danube.


The prejudice and violence gays in Hungary are protesting about is caused by an extremely small minority of ultra-right nationalists who are breaking the law (45 were arrested at the march), although prior to the march there have been no reports of personal injuries and a minimal amount of property damage as a result of the attacks.

Firebombing two gay venues in the last two weeks may have only led to minimal damage. That was fortunate, they could also have led to significant number of deaths


Their support, however, is growing as they are able to stir up nationalist feelings by finding enemies to concentrate on: economically and politically the Soviet Union is an obvious target. Culturally, homosexuals are an easy target, made considerably easier by the presence of what they can readily identify as foreign "agitators" who they identify as trying to force foreign values and culture on the Hungarians - in other words, people like you. You may have been there " to highlight prejudice and anti gay violence " and to show solidarity with your fellow homosexuals, but the net result of a visible foreign presence in the march was to add weight to the nationalists' arguments - the opposite of what you presumably intended.  


In case you hadn't noticed, most white Europeans look fairly similar, and in a gay parade you would be hard pressed to pick out individual nationalities, let alone "readily identify foreign agitators" or be a "visible foreign presence"!

 
Your comments  seem to reflect someone rationalising their own belief that no purpose is to be served by gay parades, and who believes, apparently, that homsexuals who suffer discrimination have only themselves to blame. I still think it amazing that anyone, let alone a gay man, can equate gay people peacefully parading, and those who declare their intention to disrupt their parade and cause them physical harm! Well I expect that we could bat this back and forth a few more times, but it seems no purpose would be served, and we will agree to differ

Brad the Impala wrote:

Please give your source for these quotations, as no report that I have read refers to the gay parade organizers "looking for confrontation" or a "fight". Rather the reverse that because of the ramped up threats this year, the parade was shorter and less well attended than last year.

Reuters, repeated in nearly every report I could find on the rally:" Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them" - as written in the opening post by Lonely Wombat, which led to my post and which I quoted in it.
 

Brad the Impala wrote:

Your comments  seem to reflect someone rationalising their own belief that no purpose is to be served by gay parades, and who believes, apparently, that homsexuals who suffer discrimination have only themselves to blame.

I have never said or inferred either, and your assumptions are totally incorrect. My criticism is of those who support any cause without knowing its full agenda, actively or tacitly, just because they share a common trait by an accident of birth, whether it be their skin colour, religion, race, or sexual inclination. I have made this very clear, citing unrelated examples, and anyone reading anything more into what I have said has misread my posts or read parts totally out of context.

GF,

Glad to have your views on the value of gay parades clarified.

The quotes for which I was asking for reference were of course not those contained in the opening post, as these are already credited.

As you correctly quoted me in your last post, I was asking for your references, and you claimed that there were several, to the quotes that you used saying that the organisers of the gay parade were "looking for a fight", your quotation marks.

Brad,

your imagination is outweighed only by your lack of basic comprehension. Do you not read anything that others write before jumping to a conclusion and attributing "views" to others which have no connection with what they actually wrote?

I have said nothing further on the subject of "gay parades", and I have already made my "views on the value of gay parades" abundantly clear elsewhere.

The quote of "looking for a fight" was a repeat of my comment made in response to the particular line in the Reuters article I quoted from the opening post. You repeated this quote/comment yourself, as well as the line by Reuters ( "Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them"), which has now been quoted no less than seven times in eight posts, yet you still appear either unable to understand what it means or not to have read it.  

This line by Reuters can have no meaning other than "looking for a fight", no matter how you interpret it, even though it is a rather unusual choice of phrase. I have no idea if it is true or not, which is why I wrote "It sounds like ....etc" in response to it. I made no comment on any views I had made as a result of any in-depth study of the organisers, or of those taking part, or of anyone else. I have already made this point crystal clear and underlined it in the first line of my reply to you so that even a blind child would find it hard to miss - apparently you have.

My interest in this, which was minimal before, is now over.

Gone Fishing wrote:

No, I am calling the Budapest rally organizers that, based on what was widely reported to be given by the organisers as one reason for their  marching, nothing more and nothing less:Gay groups said they were marching partly to repudiate several recent attacks against them.

According to that report, and to similar ones, the organizers were aiming for a confrontation ("looking for a fight").

So you have no source for your quotation that the organisers were "looking for a fight"! It is simply your fabrication of a quote to justify your point apparently.

Your comment that "the organizers were aiming for a confrontation" is also one for which you cannot find a source, so it is merely your intrepetation of the news stories, based on the word repudiate. I think that you need to look up repudiate if you think that word justifies your interpretation.

Here is a link.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/repudiate

Gone Fishing wrote:

 I have made this very clear, citing unrelated examples, and anyone reading anything more into what I have said has misread my posts or read parts totally out of context.[

Perhaps it would have been clearer if you cited related examples, rather than unrelated examples!

My sincere apologies to anyone stupid enough to still be reading this pointless debate for my reneging on my withdrawal.

Brad,

My final attempt to get through to you.

Brad the Impala wrote:

So you have no source for your quotation that the organisers were "looking for a fight"! It is simply your fabrication of a quote to justify your point apparently.

It was not a quote from a source. It was never a quote from a source. It was not a "fabrication" of anything. It was a repeat of my initial comment, nothing more, nothing less. A three year old could understand that.

Brad the Impala wrote:

Your comment that "the organizers were aiming for a confrontation" is also one for which you cannot find a source, so it is merely your intrepetation of the news stories, based on the word repudiate.

Of course it is my interpretation of the news report - that is why I quoted the news report and said "Sounds like ....". there cannot be a "source" for a comment I am making myself!

Brad the Impala wrote:

I think that you need to look up repudiate if you think that word justifies your interpretation.

From your link: to reject emphatically, to reject with denial, to reject with disapproval or condemnation, to make ashamed.   Short of saying "we are aiming for a pitched fight in the square", which would hardly have been appropriate for a "Dignity" March, the reported statement could hardly have been more confrontational.

I also took the opportunity to look up "bigot" - as you meet all the criteria, you were obviously in the right place.

Brad the Impala wrote:

Perhaps it would have been clearer if you cited related examples, rather than unrelated examples!

The examples were to highlight the point, as comparisons; if they had been related they would have been irrelevant.

Brad, do me and everyone else a favour and take Once in Awhile's advice and put me on ignore - you appear to have the mental acuity of a cabbage and you have already ignored every explanation I have made, so you may just as well.

Gone Fishing wrote:

Of course it is my interpretation of the news report - that is why I quoted the news report and said "Sounds like ....". there cannot be a "source" for a comment I am making myself!

Actually this is untrue. You did not use "sounds like" in this connection. Nor did you indicate it was your intrepetation of a news report. What you wrote was:



According to that report, and to similar ones, the organizers were aiming for a confrontation ("looking for a fight").


Those comments are inaccurate and and your presentation of the reports as saying such is both dishonest and a gross distortion of the English language.


Whatever. It still seems a bizarre intrepetation to call the participants in a long scheduled peaceful march, that has to be penned in by two sets of metal barriers to save it from assault, "looking for a confrontation". It is my experience from the previous parade, see link, and from this one, that the gay guys parading were cowed and intimidated by the physical and verbal assaults, not confrontational.

Of course you, who weren't there, know best.

It also seems bizarre, and offensive, to label the parade participants, acting legally, as equally culpable for the violence as the assailants who were illegally, as demonstrated by the 45 people arrested, hell bent on stopping on stopping the parade, solely because the participants were gay. Both last year and this molotov cocktails were thrown at the parade by demonstrators, against whom the police had to use teargas.

Then to label both the paraders and their assailants as bigots! But then that seems to be your "mot du jour". I bet that you think even the civil rights marchers were confrontational bigots.

www.sawatdee-gay-thailand.com/forum/gay-pride-in-budapest-t12470.html



Last edited by Brad the Impala on Fri 11 Jul, 2008 11:49 pm; edited 1 time in total

Boy, this is the most entertaining dustup since Botting called it quits.    

Stick to your guns Brad.

As someone once told me here (Edith? Auntie?) "Grow those nails, and paint 'em RED."


PS. And as someone else once said here (to paraphrase): It's funny how the Europeens keep worring about a American Facists  when they seem to sprout them like weeds.

What we have here is a very neat distillation of the diametrically opposed gay perspectives of pride parades. On one side the conservatives represented by GF express their embarrassment at the more flamboyant displays and disassociate themselves from people that they feel they have very little in common with. GF takes it further and asserts that the particular parade under discussion was a provocation to violence.

On the other side Brad represents the view that it is important that gays and minorities who may have common cause should be seen, so that they may be heard. This is not an unreasonable assertion in a civilised society.

You know, it is at the core of the study of society that closetry is dis-empowerment. It is no accident that one of the greatest philosophers of modern sociology, Michel Foucault, was said to be an habitué of the back-rooms of Folsom Street in the 1960s. What better laboratory to develop theories of power exchange in a relatively safe and "laboratory" type setting.

I doff my cap to those brave enough to stand up and be counted on the streets of Eastern Europe at the start of this century. They are not conducting safe experiments or even fieldwork but are enacting their liberation. In my book they are real men, whatever they wear. If nobody will face down the bullies then everyone is dis-empowered and those who challenge bullies deserve our support.