[Lunchtime O'Booze]

[Wesley]

Indeed, I can count two great mistakes (Lets leave out the recent ones)of America, one was the demise of the Indians , second the slavery issue. I belong to an indian tribe in the south and most of my ancestors on both sides were Indian, however that does not make me want to vote for Obama

Wesley

[Henry Cate]

Every so often, it is helpful to take a contrarian view of things. As far as the American Indians (or Native Americans), one contrarian view is that what happened was inevitable. Compare, for example, the Australian aborigines in Australia. In fact, when one culture with vastly superior material technology (and the accompanying intellectual apparatus) is brought into long contact with a culture which is illiterate and does not have the accompanying intellectual apparatus, the outlook is grim indeed. The only exception I am aware of is Papua New Guinea, where apparently the illiterate Papuan tribes lead an artificially sheltered life, protected by their Australian overlords.

After all, one of the things NOT possessed by the American Indians was the notion of private (or several) property. They had, of course, a very CLEAR understanding of who-owned-what, but it was tribal, not individual. Therefore, on one level at least, discussion was impossible.

One must also take into account that not just once, but on many, many occasions, the Indians were the people who declared war. The Iroquois were famous (like the Spanish Inquisition) for burning people alive. Scalping, rape, and all the rest did not help.

The American Indians, being without gunpowder etc. naturally lost. I suppose that, in line with the current fashion, we should go on TV and say "We apologize."

The slavery thing is more interesting. Up until 1860 or so, my impression is that the whole world had slaves. The English were certainly involved in the slave trade in a major way, and even more so -- the Arabs. There was a vast trans-Saharan traffic in black slaves which provided one of the main sources of income for the Barbary Coast. (The other source, naturally, was raiding European ships and enslaving Europeans, particularly prized in Istanbul.)

So it does not seem to me that America deserves any particular onus in the slavery business. In fact, what sets us apart is that we actually fought the bloodiest war in American history to free the slaves.

Any other candidates?

By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats.

[Henry Cate]

If anyone actually LOOKS at that photo, they will see a small child being manipulated by adults. In particular, his legs are covered with footer stuff, and his headdress looks suspiciously like the Rainbow Flag -- not like ANY authentic American Indian wear I have ever seen.

If you doubt me, just tell me where the GREEN FEATHERS came from.

[Lunchtime O'Booze]

"By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats."

yes we are aware of American history dear Henry although you are stretching back a little into the past aren't you ? -a bit like trying to link some Weatherman with Barak Obama who was 8 at the time he committed some deed (unlike Mrs Bush who ran down and killed a person when she was an adult)

....but that makes it even more ironic that the current Republican Party is run by a bunch of racist , right wing lying scumbags who would trash the Constitution and contemplate endorsing a nutbag like Sarah Apalin who gave speeches at the group who detest the rest of the USA and wish Alaska to break away from America and thus keep all that oil you think is coming your way. ( which I reckom sounds like treason)

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??

[homintern]

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??

Careful Doris, you're mixing up your George and Lunchtime O'Booze personas again

[topjohn5]

Indeed, I can count two great mistakes (Lets leave out the recent ones)of America, one was the demise of the Indians , second the slavery issue. I belong to an indian tribe in the south and most of my ancestors on both sides were Indian, however that does not make me want to vote for Obama

Wesley

Hi Wes,
I'm of Cherokee descent myself.....and a Libertarian/Objectivist. Uggggg, I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!

[homintern]

I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!

So what are you going to do this year? Say "Neither of the candidates reaches my exalted standards, so I'm sitting this one out"? That sounds a tad irresponsible.

[topjohn5]

I couldn't possibly vote for a socialist like.........well, like all of them!!!

So what are you going to do this year? Say "Neither of the candidates reaches my exalted standards, so I'm sitting this one out"? That sounds a tad irresponsible.

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!

[homintern]

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!

That is an issue of priorities. Either you believe self-proclaimed maverick McCain that he can achieve in office what he's never achieved in the Senate, or you believe the newbie. Either way, believing what anyone says during an election campaign is fraught with danger. Remember "Read my lips - No new taxes"? As someone who is McCain's near contemporary, and in comparable health, I wouldn't be voting for that old man on the grounds of age alone. There's a poll in, I think, last week's Economist - hardly a "liberal" magazine - of economists in the US, on their views of both candidates. It's worth reading. I'll dig up the URL if you can't find it online

[topjohn5]

No, I'm voting for whichever candidate is going to create the fewest new entitlement programs since none of them are discussing scaling them back...and which ever one is going to increase the size of government the least. Gee, we can't even pay for half of the programs we've already created!

That is an issue of priorities. Either you believe self-proclaimed maverick McCain that he can achieve in office what he's never achieved in the Senate, or you believe the newbie. Either way, believing what anyone says during an election campaign is fraught with danger. Remember "Read my lips - No new taxes"? As someone who is McCain's near contemporary, and in comparable health, I wouldn't be voting for that old man on the grounds of age alone. There's a poll in, I think, last week's Economist - hardly a "liberal" magazine - of economists in the US, on their views of both candidates. It's worth reading. I'll dig up the URL if you can't find it online

Ain't that the truth.....
I'll read the article in the Economist.....Thanks!

[francois]

If anyone actually LOOKS at that photo, they will see a small child being manipulated by adults. In particular, his legs are covered with footer stuff, and his headdress looks suspiciously like the Rainbow Flag -- not like ANY authentic American Indian wear I have ever seen.

If you doubt me, just tell me where the GREEN FEATHERS came from.

They are not feathers! The boy is wearing a headdress known as a roach. Even I know that and I am not an Indian. Roaches were made from animal hair and dyed bright couleurs. It is authentic in that they are made and used by modern Indians using modern dyes. In the past Indians used naturel dyes for these headdresses.
If you ever attended a Powwow you would see similar examples.

[Henry Cate]

I'd never heard of it, so I guess you do learn something every day.

Still, it was fun looking for the green feathers.

[Henry Cate]

"By the way, as a weird footnote, who among us realizes that the Ku Klux Klan was an organization of Democrats??? Liberals tend to assume that all liberals of all times have been in agreement with current liberal sentiment, but Abe Lincoln was a Republican. The people who really couldn't STAND the emancipation of African slaves...well, they were Democrats."

yes we are aware of American history dear Henry although you are stretching back a little into the past aren't you ? -a bit like trying to link some Weatherman with Barak Obama who was 8 at the time he committed some deed (unlike Mrs Bush who ran down and killed a person when she was an adult)

....but that makes it even more ironic that the current Republican Party is run by a bunch of racist , right wing lying scumbags who would trash the Constitution and contemplate endorsing a nutbag like Sarah Apalin who gave speeches at the group who detest the rest of the USA and wish Alaska to break away from America and thus keep all that oil you think is coming your way. ( which I reckom sounds like treason)

I don't know, where did those fucking green feathers come from ??

I was stretching back into the past a little? One of the subjects under discussion was slavery. So, I pointed out that the Great Emancipator was a Republican, and the KKK were Democrats.

Well, you would probably be disappointed to learn that liberals are quite a bit more likely to be racist than conservatives. See Makers and Takers for a long list of things which are not publicized by the media.

"Right wing?" What does that weary old term mean? It originated in revolutionary France, I believe, with "left" referring to one side of the chamber and "right" referring to the other side. But we are not living in revolutionary France. If you said I was in favor of the free market, I would agree enthusiastically.

After all, at the end of the day, many of us hardly disagree at all, but would like to see an end to poverty, men living in harmony, and all that Kumbaya stuff. I think that the only real existing difference is between those who want it to happen NOW, through government-imposed egalitarianism -- which does not work -- and those who want to see it really happen -- through hard work, capital, and investment. There is another significant difference, between those who actually want to help people right now with their own money (which can be costly), and those who simply shrug off their responsibilities and vote "Liberal," taking the attitude "I gave at the office." There are those content to sit back and contentedly declaim that the Thai educational system is bullshit, and there are others who spend significant amounts of time and money trying to make it better.

[Chao Na]

Henry, surely you know that the great civil rights battles in US history were not fought primarily along party lines, but among regional (North/South) lines.