The Blue Diamond Affair

[Gone Fishing]

The case with the 16 year old which was hung for being gay in Iran was enough proof for me

Wes,

I can only repeat what I wrote the second time you made this exact same point:

"You are, presumably, referring to the two Iranians (Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni) who were hung not for being gay, despite claims of this in the more extremist gay press such as Outrage!, but for the abduction at knife point and subsequent gang rape of a 13 year old boy by five men.

Human Rights Watch and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, amongst others such as the Dutch Interior Ministry who investigated this, specifically said that “It was not a gay case”, as I have already posted at considerable length here with full supporting details and references should you wish to verify this."

If all the "proof" you require is a mis-translation (deliberate or accidental) published by Peter Tatchell of a deliberately inaccurate report written by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (a group listed as a terrorist organisation by both Iran and the USA) which ommited all the more serious charges in order to discredit the Iranian government, then your idea of the burden of proof would seem to be rather less than you have professed it to be on other issues.

I was tempted to point out that this was a perfect example of the point I made on those "who are quite happy (even "proud") to lie, distort the truth and fabricate statements and evidence in order to support their case", but as that (I hope) applies to Peter Tatchell and you simply continue to be misled that could have been unfair. Instead I would ask you to look at it in the light of the view that "misinformation, plain prejudice and lack of education or, the willingness to learn" by homophiles as well as homophobes "may not have a cure at all". Prejudice cuts both ways.

I have the greatest sympathy for the rejection both you and allieb have suffered, Wes, believe me; maybe if I had "felt this type of rejection" myself I would feel differently now but (so far) I never have, probably because I have never felt the need to "come out" about my sexuality any more than about any other personal details such as my school, titles, decorations and awards (if any!), religion, etc, etc. As I have seldom felt the need to ask such personal questions of others, taking people as I found them, I can see no reason to force that type of information on others unless it is relevant or requested. As I have seldom been asked such questions (except on this board!) I am apparently one of the lucky ones.

..... I see now you were just responding to GF. Not hyperbole, but racism as his "facts" are not based on the reality of the region (Saudi Arabia or Israel).

....Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

I have actually tried to avoid taking sides in the discussion as it now stands, since there are valid arguments on both sides - what I find disappointing, but hardly surprising though, is that rather than produce the valid arguments it is just another repeat of "Conlige suspectos semper habitos".

Maybe my old friend Q H Flaccus had it right: "Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt."

[Wesley]

The case with the 16 year old which was hung for being gay in Iran was enough proof for me

Wes,

I can only repeat what I wrote the second time you made this exact same point:

"You are, presumably, referring to the two Iranians (Mahmoud Asgari and Ayaz Marhoni) who were hung not for being gay, despite claims of this in the more extremist gay press such as Outrage!, but for the abduction at knife point and subsequent gang rape of a 13 year old boy by five men.

Human Rights Watch and the International Gay and Lesbian Human Rights Commission, amongst others such as the Dutch Interior Ministry who investigated this, specifically said that “It was not a gay case”, as I have already posted at considerable length here with full supporting details and references should you wish to verify this."

If all the "proof" you require is a mis-translation (deliberate or accidental) published by Peter Tatchell of a deliberately inaccurate report written by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (a group listed as a terrorist organisation by both Iran and the USA) which ommited all the more serious charges in order to discredit the Iranian government, then your idea of the burden of proof would seem to be rather less than you have professed it to be on other issues.

I was tempted to point out that this was a perfect example of the point I made on those "who are quite happy (even "proud") to lie, distort the truth and fabricate statements and evidence in order to support their case", but as that (I hope) applies to Peter Tatchell and you simply continue to be misled that could have been unfair. Instead I would ask you to look at it in the light of the view that "misinformation, plain prejudice and lack of education or, the willingness to learn" by homophiles as well as homophobes "may not have a cure at all". Prejudice cuts both ways.

I have the greatest sympathy for the rejection both you and allieb have suffered, Wes, believe me; maybe if I had "felt this type of rejection" myself I would feel differently now but (so far) I never have, probably because I have never felt the need to "come out" about my sexuality any more than about any other personal details such as my school, titles, decorations and awards (if any!), religion, etc, etc. As I have seldom felt the need to ask such personal questions of others, taking people as I found them, I can see no reason to force that type of information on others unless it is relevant or requested. As I have seldom been asked such questions (except on this board!) I am apparently one of the lucky ones.

..... I see now you were just responding to GF. Not hyperbole, but racism as his "facts" are not based on the reality of the region (Saudi Arabia or Israel).

....Commodo Mea Culpa. I do know when I am wrong, and in my response to your post, I was clearly wrong.

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

I have actually tried to avoid taking sides in the discussion as it now stands, since there are valid arguments on both sides - what I find disappointing, but hardly surprising though, is that rather than produce the valid arguments it is just another repeat of "Conlige suspectos semper habitos".

Maybe my old friend Q H Flaccus had it right: "Caelum non animum mutant qui trans mare currunt."

Naturally, I cannot say that you are wrong, only that the picture of the guys hanging was what still permeates my mind and not your post about it. I realize now that it was mentioned before and you responded in kind. For me it was such a despicable picture that it has never cleared my mind , in as much as I can't remember a time when my heart went out to anyone more than then when I saw those pictures. I guess it is so, a picture is worth a thousand words, for surely it is what was left with me over and over, what I saw not what you said. Maybe this time it will stick with me. I faintly remembered when I posted that that there was some dispute about it but could not remember the details. As usual I respond openly to your factual statements with the assumption you have made the usual research about this matter. BTW I usually don't just post out of habit, as per your Latin.

As to my life I was married, by the time the divorce was over everyone knew I was gay, It was not my preference but, it did leave me with a sense of liberty that few people share. I prefer to suffer in honesty about my self than to hide what I believe to be the real me behind my conscience. If for you it was a matter about your job then I take that as a personal choice you had to make to survive. In that I I believe you had no recourse.

All the best!

Wes

[Beachlover]

ROFL... this is the perfect spat (perfect storm).

Two members, allieb and beach bunny have completely different views (you know they will never ever agree) and go a few rounds, then other members weigh in.

I read the blue diamond affair timeline at the start of the post. First time I've heard of this incident and I must say, what a completely f*cked up thing... I mean really, just incredibly f*cked up every step of the way.

I completely agree, it is definitely an only in Thailand thing. I would recommend you google it and you will come up with even more great stuff. Just about every level of Thai society is involved in this theft and cover-up. This seems to be the Blog entry that Allieb quoted at the start of this thread, but do google it.

http://jotman.blogspot.com/2009/08/time ... ffair.html

Thanks Khor tose, I also looked at this more concise version of events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Diamond_Affair

Totalled f*cked. I mean, not only did the Saudi Royal have $20m (+inflation) stolen from him, the Thais were even stupid enough to kill a business man close to the Saudi royals and 3 Saudi embassy workers. Even worse... they then go onto return a bunch of fakes and then do a botched job of hiding the deception! And the murder of the family is just as f*cked...

I guess people are greedy... and sometimes this gets away from them.

[Khor tose]

Thanks Khor tose, I also looked at this more concise version of events: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_Diamond_Affair
Totalled f*cked. I mean, not only did the Saudi Royal have $20m (+inflation) stolen from him, the Thais were even stupid enough to kill a business man close to the Saudi royals and 3 Saudi embassy workers. Even worse... they then go onto return a bunch of fakes and then do a botched job of hiding the deception! And the murder of the family is just as f*cked...

I guess people are greedy... and sometimes this gets away from them.

What is really f*cked is that while the Thai upper class seemed to have profited from the theft, the working class Thais lost out on about 50,000 jobs and Thailand lost out on 1.5 Billion of income a year these workers would have made.

[Khor tose]

The best and worse places in the world to be gay, according to DNA Magazine:
http://www.dnamagazine.com.au/articles/ ... ws_id=6695

You have got to be kidding. I am to believe this article that is reprinted from the "The Independent", a Murdoch rag similar to Foxx news and the National Enquirer.

I do believe the lashing episode because it was widly reported. Still does not compare to machine gunning a buch of youths. Furthermore, how would this make all Arabs-especially Saudis--hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses”. They do not share a common humanity, and they cannot change the way the West has changed? Where do you think they are from, Mars?. I suppose that goes for the poor souls who were whipped too. Now you can call them "hairy,smelly hypocrital asses with bloody backs and laugh about it.

[Khor tose]

I do not want to press the point unfairly, K t, and I regret all the above has been "off issue", but does that mean that you agree with me that "the "phenomenon" of open sexual promiscuity and overt public sexual display by anyone, gay or straight, along similar lines to the USA, does not exist in the Middle East (including in Israel" and Saudi Arabia), or are you saying that one (or both?) have a similar open gay culture to the USA?

At the moment to be "out and open" exit in Israel and places in Lebanon, and a little bit in Turkey, but nowhere else in the middle East. In Israel the religious right has tried to stop the gay marches in Jerusalem, and some MK's even proposed a bill in their Parliament to that effect, but it went nowhere. This year the gays changed the direction of the marches, the marchers wore shirts and the Ultra Orthodox stayed away because they did not want to expose their youth to the march. However, there are now more UOs in Israel then secular Jews. Only the need to have a common front against the Palastinians keeps the UOs from going after the gays. These are religious Zealots (a good Jewish word). Our debate is not whether or not Moslems--as a general rule--are against open homosexuality, because they are, but whether or not they are all "hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses" and incapable of changing---like the West's attitude on gays has changed. Originally he suggested that Thais were so much better off without the Saudis and the 50,000 jobs and 1 1/2 billion in revenue they could have made, but he dropped that.

[Beach Bunny]

Still does not compare to machine gunning a buch of youths.

Finally...you are right about something.

The lashings were a state-sponsored execution of the formalized, deep-seated, institutionalized and legal discrimination of gays in Saudi Arabia.

The shootings in Israel were the work, of a lone gunman, the crazed individual that exists in every society, and a rare but not unknown act anywhere, that is not only illegal, but is condemned by every echelon of society (including all of the ultra-Orthodox groups which you seem to believe should support it).

Oh, perhaps the Palestinian groups did not come out against it because, you know, they're Arabs and they think those perverts deserved it.

So DNA magazine is a "Murdoch rag"...so what, exactly? Are you saying that their choices are wrong? Politically motivated? Are you saying that Saudi should be in the top five best instead of the top five worst? What are you saying, exactly? It seems so outrageous, I have to stop for clarification.

[Khor tose]

Still does not compare to machine gunning a bunch of youths.

Finally...you are right about something.
The lashings were a state-sponsored execution of the formalized, deep-seated, institutionalized and legal discrimination of gays in Saudi Arabia.
The shootings in Israel were the work, of a lone gunman, the crazed individual that exists in every society, and a rare but not unknown act anywhere, that is not only illegal, but is condemned by every echelon of society (including all of the ultra-Orthodox groups which you seem to believe should support it).
So DNA magazine is a "Murdoch rag"...so what, exactly? Are you saying that their choices are wrong? Politically motivated? Are you saying that Saudi should be in the top five best instead of the top five worst? What are you saying, exactly? It seems so outrageous, I have to stop for clarification.

You still do not read very well do you. DNA did not conduct that poll, they reprinted it from the Independent, very questionable source to say the least. They probably ran a poll of the office workers after writting the article on the women raped by UFO aliens. That instances you reported was well reported and it was terrible. Both Allieb and I have been telling you from the start that public displays (like a gay marriage) are prohibited. All we have said from the start is that you can be gay in Saudi Arabia just not out. Now answer the question as to why all Arab---apparently the ones whipped too---are all "hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses, and why they lack the humanity to change their culture the way the West has changed their attitudes towards Homosexuality. Also, since you have nothing else to do, and you made the claim, show me where the Ultra Ortodox have condemned the shooting.

[kenc]

I think this has to be a record for going off topic.
I was going to suggest to Allieb that he change the topic header but on second thought maybe it should stand as a prime example of Sawatee Stupidity.

It was actually an interesting chronology. I had heard the story before but never paid too much attention. It's certainly a story worth a book treatment.
One thing that caught my eye was that it all started in the late 80's and certainly before the "troubles" in '92. I think one could make a case that it was the most corrupt and venial period of recent Thai history.
Now that would be a much more interesting subject for Bunny to talk about. He was there then wasn't he?

But please, don't let me stop youse guyse from channeling Hedda.

[Wesley]

As much of this is about BB, I am sure by now he has seen my post that he is the only one I have on ignore List, which to get ignored by me the last one to be called an intellectual, is probably the greatest put down of all.

I will quote our wonderful Homiturn in this matter , often you are quoted and I have no option, secondly I don't need to read your post to get under your skin. I can just push the right buttons and shazam there you appear as a little slit in the thread saying," this person is on you ignore list". I need to do nothing more then.

So, as did Homiturn I know what buttons to push to get under your skin and the fact that you are officially a racist proclaims even the more reason to keep you on ignore.

I suppose now you are going to try to black mail me the way inyou did in your PM to homiturn I read. Bad luck I came out a long time ago. I have nothing to hide. have fun. I wonder what incarnation you will take now that everyone knows you are the famed BG that has been run off the forum several times only to come back in some sort of incarnation. Ah, but your prejudice always gives you away. How sad that your inner hate defines you, your posting and your incarnations of whoever in the next one you think you are. People like you can never hide under charters. You just as well put your real name on here and let everyone know who you are.

All the best!

Wes

[allieb]

Kenc

Yes this has gon right off topic into Boygeyus's agenda.

The last thing I will say about the off tipic subject is that a whipping in Saudi Arabia isn't what you think it is.


I stumbled on one some years ago whilst passing the so to speak town square. The victim isn't dragged out as they describe, he is led out and lies face down. He wears a thobe, a sort of full length shirt to the floor. He is beaten by a man with a long ratan cane who hs a copy of the Koran in his armpit to limit the force of the beating. It is by no means severe and does'nt leave any marks.

The whole episode is a total public humiliation for the victim It would leave all S & M fans rather dissapointed. It is not to be compared with the barbaric beatings in Singapore. Boygeenyus could tell you more about that as it's a place he claimed to live in at one time under one of his board names.

Lastly What the fuck does Boygeenyus know about life in other places all his information comes from what he's read in magazines and books. A virtual tourist

[Beach Bunny]

The ultra-Orthodox Shas party, a frequent critic of gays in Israel, issued a statement condemning the attack.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ng-11.html

Ultra-Orthodox parties condemned the shooting attack.

http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-02-voa4.cfm

Leaders of Shas, a party that has depicted homosexuality as blasphemy evoking divine retribution, condemned the attack

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66567.html

The shooting drew condemnation from the Chief Rabbinate calling the attacks “an unthinkable, vile crime.” It also drew condemnation from members of Shas, as well as from nearly ever tier of the Israeli political system.

http://lezgetreal.com/?p=20030

The Shas faction released a statement following the shooting in which it called for the attacker "to be found and tried. Murder is of course against the Torah's path and every attack is a contravention of the religion of Israel."

http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... b-789.html

[Beach Bunny]

The above is my last post on this subject.

I will not have further discussion with someone who appears to be an apologist for the public flogging of individuals whose only crime was being gay. In fact, the idea completely sickens me -- as I'm sure it does most posters on this board.

[Khor tose]

He was there then wasn't he?
But please, don't let me stop youse guyse from channeling Hedda.

Ken I am not channeling Hedda. Hedda hatred for Israeli's is just as strong as Boygenius' hatred of Arabs. I am s just trying to pin him down as the nutter racist he is. I hope you notice that he keeps avoiding the question if he really means all Arabs are
hairy, smelly, hypocritical asses. This, of course, includes the gay Arabs who have been persecuted in Saudi Arabia. He also denies their basic humanity and their ability to change their outlook on Gays. He cites Israel as a shining example of gay tolerance, in spite of a long history of homophobia by the religious right in Israel.
I am coming around to Allieb view that boygenius is just virtual, as he has just shown me how little he knows about Israeli politics. See my reply below to him.

[Khor tose]

The ultra-Orthodox Shas party, a frequent critic of gays in Israel, issued a statement condemning the attack.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldne ... ng-11.html
Ultra-Orthodox parties condemned the shooting attack.
http://www.voanews.com/english/2009-08-02-voa4.cfm
Leaders of Shas, a party that has depicted homosexuality as blasphemy evoking divine retribution, condemned the attack
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 66567.html
The shooting drew condemnation from the Chief Rabbinate calling the attacks “an unthinkable, vile crime.” It also drew condemnation from members of Shas, as well as from nearly ever tier of the Israeli political system.
http://lezgetreal.com/?p=20030
The Shas faction released a statement following the shooting in which it called for the attacker "to be found and tried. Murder is of course against the Torah's path and every attack is a contravention of the religion of Israel."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed ... b-789.html

Bullshit, you really do not know anything about Israeli politics. I am busy right now, but as soon as I have time, allow me to educate you on the various parties in Israel--especially taking into account the results of the last election, and the present coaltion government.