Thoughts on budgeting for living in Thailand long term ...

[Gone Fishing]

"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist.

Yes, I made no secret that I saw inconsistencies - to me, however, they were hardly "little" and were so glaring that I was reminded of the previous posts nearly a year ago. I have a memory for detail and although now retired my work occasionally depended on spotting such inconsistencies, so it has now become natural - it is not something you can just "switch off", but I know my friends well enough (and they me!) for it not to be a problem!

Although there are obviously so many differences in "understanding" that we are sometimes speaking a different language, I simply found (and still find) it bizarre that someone with a couple of million dollars in the bank and a pension of nearly 300,000 baht a month, would say that he hoped it would still be possible to live on around 40,000 baht a month when he moved to Thailand. It simply raised the question "why?" - why would he want to live on that amount and why did he previously say that he owned a $2,000,000 yacht which he was selling if any additional funds, such as this, were not "figured-in" to the sums he was now openly discussing? After you made it clear (and I have every reason to believe you, and none not to) that it is considerably more than a couple of million it changed the question from "why?" to "why??"!! (I must emphasise that this is purely rhetorical and an explanation of my "nit-picking", not a question either asking for or expecting an answer).

I have re-read not only my post but also those made in February last which I provided a link to - again purely rhetorical, but did you read them before you posted, either on the 3rd or earlier today? Assuming that you did, did you not notice that "debt-management" (at considerably more than your "ZERO %" interest) and "The Deal" were dismissed virtually out-of-hand?

I am well aware of those in the property market using "every trick in the book" to finance their deals (not only in California) and the view (particularly in the US) that it is a "fact that the secret to wealth is competently managed and highly leveraged debt". While both are unavoidably true I find them as unpleasant as the people who use them to get rich at other people's expense, as there are other ways of getting sufficiently rich without, to put it bluntly, ripping other people off, and which would not have resulted in millions becoming unemployed and destitute over the next year or more.

Before you imagine that I am being "bitter" or "angry" because of some personal misfortune, I should point out that I am now at the age GBMG is planning to retire at and that I have already been retired in Thailand for fifteen years, with "sufficient" to enjoy my life to the full (without ever having had any debt, managed or otherwise).

Many of those in Thailand, and particularly in Pattaya, are far from being whom they either seem or claim to be - if they were the number of ex-SAS/GSG9/Spetznaz/Delta Force/CIA/MI6/NYFD/SWAT/Law Enforcement etc here, as well as all the ex-brain surgeons/Para-medics/scientists/university lecturers, etc, would make it one of the safest as well as one of the most intellectual places on the planet, and those who have come by their wealth by intellect, hard work and prudent but fair investment (farang and Thai alike) would make it one of the least corrupt. I can see no reason why those posting here should be anything but a cross-section of such a society, so I make no apology for highlighting inconsistencies if I happen to notice them. As X rightly points out, often these are misunderstandings - sometimes, however, they are not.

[Soi 10 Tom]

"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist.

Yes, I made no secret that I saw inconsistencies - to me, however, they were hardly "little" and were so glaring that I was reminded of the previous posts nearly a year ago. I have a memory for detail and although now retired my work occasionally depended on spotting such inconsistencies, so it has now become natural - it is not something you can just "switch off", but I know my friends well enough (and they me!) for it not to be a problem!

Although there are obviously so many differences in "understanding" that we are sometimes speaking a different language, I simply found (and still find) it bizarre that someone with a couple of million dollars in the bank and a pension of nearly 300,000 baht a month, would say that he hoped it would still be possible to live on around 40,000 baht a month when he moved to Thailand. It simply raised the question "why?" - why would he want to live on that amount and why did he previously say that he owned a $2,000,000 yacht which he was selling if any additional funds, such as this, were not "figured-in" to the sums he was now openly discussing? After you made it clear (and I have every reason to believe you, and none not to) that it is considerably more than a couple of million it changed the question from "why?" to "why??"!! (I must emphasise that this is purely rhetorical and an explanation of my "nit-picking", not a question either asking for or expecting an answer).

I have re-read not only my post but also those made in February last which I provided a link to - again purely rhetorical, but did you read them before you posted, either on the 3rd or earlier today? Assuming that you did, did you not notice that "debt-management" (at considerably more than your "ZERO %" interest) and "The Deal" were dismissed virtually out-of-hand?

I am well aware of those in the property market using "every trick in the book" to finance their deals (not only in California) and the view (particularly in the US) that it is a "fact that the secret to wealth is competently managed and highly leveraged debt". While both are unavoidably true I find them as unpleasant as the people who use them to get rich at other people's expense, as there are other ways of getting sufficiently rich without, to put it bluntly, ripping other people off, and which would not have resulted in millions becoming unemployed and destitute over the next year or more.

Before you imagine that I am being "bitter" or "angry" because of some personal misfortune, I should point out that I am now at the age GBMG is planning to retire at and that I have already been retired in Thailand for fifteen years, with "sufficient" to enjoy my life to the full (without ever having had any debt, managed or otherwise).

Many of those in Thailand, and particularly in Pattaya, are far from being whom they either seem or claim to be - if they were the number of ex-SAS/GSG9/Spetznaz/Delta Force/CIA/MI6/NYFD/SWAT/Law Enforcement etc here, as well as all the ex-brain surgeons/Para-medics/scientists/university lecturers, etc, would make it one of the safest as well as one of the most intellectual places on the planet, and those who have come by their wealth by intellect, hard work and prudent but fair investment (farang and Thai alike) would make it one of the least corrupt. I can see no reason why those posting here should be anything but a cross-section of such a society, so I make no apology for highlighting inconsistencies if I happen to notice them. As X rightly points out, often these are misunderstandings - sometimes, however, they are not.

Gentelman of the jury; I rest my case. I think that the defendant has convicted himself on all counts.

[brandon]

One thing I haven't seen in this discussion is any really general estimate of the size of the nest eggs that would be adequate to draw down funds for your entire retirement. Could anyone please guess, or do a hypothetical, on the size of the nest egg you'd want to have before moving to Thailand? I know there's lots of variations but just a vague idea?

For example, a few weeks ago I had my finances analyzed for this projection. I have no pension & no debt (no yacht either!), and do not own a house but have a few bucks put away, and live a middle/upper-middle class fairly average lifestyle (for the US). I'd like to have a middle-class or so lifestyle when I retire. I had been doing fine for 3 years of not working but after our financial meltdown I want to go back to work just to be on the very safe side.

My money guy recommended a nest egg of $2,200,000 ($2.2 million US) which, with conservative assumptions, would allow me to withdraw $100,000 per year for 20 years, $33,000 going to taxes and the rest to live on. He only counted investment assets, no social security or other income streams. From where I am now this sounds about right.

Could anyone please just give me a really rough size of the nest egg they'd recommend before stopping work for a middle-class/upper-middle-class lifestyle in Thailand? Thanks so much.

[Aunty]

"nit-picky" - guilty as charged, 100%.

"bitter, angry" - no, at least not until some fat old queen who knows nothing about me interfered and, for no reason I am aware of, called me a "bitter old queen" and, with even less reason, assumed that I was a racist. Blah blah blah blah blah

Gentelman of the jury; I rest my case. I think that the defendant has convicted himself on all counts.

I think you're right! Oh and there's one other charge you forgot to add to the list. Board's biggest bore.

[brandon]

Thanks, Colonel, that at least give me an idea. I'm thinking if I have $1,500,000 (plus or minus, and I don't know how much plus or minus) or so in my piggy bank and no debt starting out I could safely go for 15, 20 years withdrawing $50-60,000 US per year. I don't know if that's accurate.

Thanks also Thonglor55. You've made a lot of good points. Please get ready to laugh when I tell you what I'd want for my "middle class" lifestyle in Thailand. I think this will be a howler for you guys who know so much more than I do.

Ideally I'd live in a high-rise apartment building but the size of the unit is unimportant -- I lived in studios when I first moved to NYC and to Philadelphia and was perfectly happy. I don't want servants, a car, or a boat. I do like modern appliances, and some of this may not be available, but I'd like what I have now: air conditioning, which I will run at 70F 24/7/365 (when I work, and I'm sure I'll do some consulting, I have up to 10 computers running simultaneously so this will cost me big time, plus I need lots and lots of bandwidth, through I can charge some of this cost to jobs or people who pay me for giving speeches). I would like a dish washer, washer & dryer, and other typical Western foolishness.

I don't expect to travel much, and could probably find a short consulting gig where they'd pay for my travel if I want go to the US. I'm not big on clothes, jewelry, or that stuff except I buy a couple of "killer" suits a year for public speaking. I can't cook so eat all meals out, but a street vendor is fine -- I use them now. I'd like to play with the boys several times a week as I think Thais are so attractive & have probably had every one of them in San Diego. When you stop laughing, and I don't blame you, would you say about $50,000-60,000 US pulled out of a $1.5 million US invested nest egg is in range?

I'm just starting my research into retiring; I thought I'd leave the U.S. no later than when I turn 60, and I'm 53 now (I look older & haggard because I'm old & haggard). I think I'd need to work about 5 years so I maximize my "Welcome on board" incentive bonus and have the largest bonus on departure. Taxes aren't a really big problem; I have a couple of very very very small teeny tiny companies that allow me to approach taxes from a creative standpoint. Thanks SO MUCH for your help.

[x in pattaya]

I realize this is overkill, but the last time I did my retirement visa extension I sailed through in 10 minutes with no questions asked. If there were a third option I'd probably incorporate that too and aim for 8 minutes.

Just to confirm that having all your ducks in a row can speed things up...

Although it was three weeks ahead of my retirement extension expiring, about mid-morning I realized that I had hospital appointments coming up so it would best to do the renewal now. Got the bank manager's letter and copied my bank book and reached Jomtien Immigrations at 11:30 in the morning ... on the first Monday of the month ... in January. I'm bad at estimating crowds, but the people there were definitely several hundred. The farang Immigration person who wanders about helping people kept muttering about it being the most people he'd ever seen at one time. Only ten people ahead of me for retirement extensions, but things shut down for awhile at lunchtime.

If I'm Felix Ungar,six of the 10 people ahead of me could have been Oscar Madison. Forms crammed into the butt pockets of shorts that were in need of laundering if not burning, things not signed, photocopies missing ( requiring that they be sent to the photocopy shop, delaying everyone who was waiting), no visa photos (ditto). I know some people complain about Immigration personnel, but if it were me that had to deal with these applicant-cretins everyday, I wouldn't exhibit the patience that these people do.

Anyway I had the forms filled out & signed & photo attached, bank book copies & Manager's letter, embassy letter and pension & SS letters, and passport photocopies ready ... once my number was called, start to finish, a personal record ... under five minutes. I collect the passport & visa tomorrow. I know most people probably could care less, but for those of us who are neurotic about such things (or as someone thoughtfully described me above, anal retentives) achieving a desired rubber-stamp without a hitch is as close to nirvana as one can hope to get.

[brandon]

Hi X. That's pretty funny. Things are kind of the same everywhere. I go to Mexico to buy my prescriptions that my insurance doesn't cover (Mexico is 30 minutes from San Diego by public transportation) & although the Mexicans coming into the US go through passport control quickly, because they have their stuff ready, the Americans going the other way, into Mexico, look like clueless buffoons who don't realize they're not visiting their neighbors!

Did you have any thoughts on the money stuff? I know my electricity and bandwith requirements are excessive and wonder how badly I'll be gouged for them?

Thanks again.

[x in pattaya]

Did you have any thoughts on the money stuff? I know my electricity and bandwith requirements are excessive and wonder how badly I'll be gouged for them?

Internet connectivity in Thailand is a sore point for most residential customers. If you're in Bangkok and pay business rates I believe (once again no personal experience, but from what I read) you might be satisfied, but it can be one of the more aggravating issues even for someone just using a single computer at home. At times it's great and other times you'll be pulling your hair out. Whoever the ISP is, I think they still depend on CAT for connectivity so if an Egyptian fishing trawler cuts a cable in the Mediteranean, everyone may get hit with excruciatingly slow connections.

Although Thailand is labeled a third world country, many things like medical services, appliances & electronic equipment, all the useless stuff you can find in shopping malls, etc are as good as or better than you'll find elsewhere. Of course, this assumes an urban location. Life in the boonies is ... um ... like life in the boonies anywhere.

Do keep in mind that electricity is 220/240 v. These days most things can deal with the change in voltage one way or another, but it might matter for some things. Also bringing a load of electronic equipment or appliances into Thailand will probably attract the interest of Customs who will hit you with hefty duties (and may want to know why you need 7 computers or whatever). Most things you probably want are available here for reasonable prices. With computers you need to specify legal operating system software. Just about everything available in terms of software is a rip-off copy, but original system stuff is available if you specify it.

One issue you may not have considered is your visa. If you're here on a retirement visa, you cannot be employed. Of course, if you're doing something at home and dealing with people back in the US, etc, no one will know or care, but if you appear to be running a business, that can open a Pandora's box of problems on a retirement visa.

I've got a pension, social security and investments. For the time being, I set it up so that some of the dividend and interest income added to the pension & SS provide me with a sufficient income stream and allow for capital appreciation as well as some dividend reinvestment. Obviously an unprecendented financial & economic crisis weren't factors in my planning, but under normal circumstances my planning provides some built in inflation protection. Ideally, based on my planning, I'm good for 10 years or so before I might even consider selling off anything and even then it may not be neccesary. So basically I based my planning on the income flow from my three cash sources rather than a certain overall portfolio value. I have every intention of staying here until i'm a puff of smoke over the Wat Chai creamatorium (oops...that should have been crematorium... the creamatoriums are located on Soi Twilight or at Hero massage), so my plans also are determined by cost of living in Thailand only.

Business expenses aside, I think you should be able to maintain a comfortable life style between $30,000 to $50,000 a year locally (exchange rate willing). The upper limit would put you out of the league of most resident farangs. Travelling outside the country or maintaining a home in the US, etc would obviously be on top of that.

I look older & haggard because I'm old & haggard

This can easily be solved by not looking in mirrors and having a reasonably young, handsome Thai male relating to you in a way that makes you think, "Hey, I can't look that bad." The mirror thing is probably the most important.

[z909]

Thanks, Colonel, that at least give me an idea. I'm thinking if I have $1,500,000 (plus or minus, and I don't know how much plus or minus) or so in my piggy bank and no debt starting out I could safely go for 15, 20 years withdrawing $50-60,000 US per year. I don't know if that's accurate.

If over a reasonable period of time you invest $1,500,000 in an internationally diversified portfolio of stocks with a yield of 4%, then you could probably have $60,000 per year for the rest of your life.

As an alternative, if you really are going to be unsociable enough to indulge in unprotected anal sex in Thailand, then you could probably spend $100,000 per year due to the reduced life expectation.

[brandon]

Did you have any thoughts on the money stuff? I know my electricity and bandwith requirements are excessive and wonder how badly I'll be gouged for them?

Business expenses aside, I think you should be able to maintain a comfortable life style between $30,000 to $50,000 a year locally (exchange rate willing). The upper limit would put you out of the league of most resident farangs. Travelling outside the country or maintaining a home in the US, etc would obviously be on top of that.

I look older & haggard because I'm old & haggard

This can easily be solved by not looking in mirrors and having a reasonably young, handsome Thai male relating to you in a way that makes you think, "Hey, I can't look that bad." The mirror thing is probably the most important.

Wow! Tremendous information. Thank you. Looks like the best plan is to buy new things there & just let my partner keep everything if do this. Also sounds like I'm going to want satellite Web connectivity. I've read many times that the health care in Bangkok is very good and some of the electronics are well ahead of the U.S. Thanks again. I think I even got the joke about the cream!

[brandon]

Thanks, Colonel, that at least give me an idea. I'm thinking if I have $1,500,000 (plus or minus, and I don't know how much plus or minus) or so in my piggy bank and no debt starting out I could safely go for 15, 20 years withdrawing $50-60,000 US per year. I don't know if that's accurate.

If over a reasonable period of time you invest $1,500,000 in an internationally diversified portfolio of stocks with a yield of 4%, then you could probably have $60,000 per year for the rest of your life.

As an alternative, if you really are going to be unsociable enough to indulge in unprotected anal sex in Thailand, then you could probably spend $100,000 per year due to the reduced life expectation.

Thanks, again great information! I'll take that last part as a joke. I guess I really hit a nerve. I didn't mean to. Nothing like getting off on the wrong . . . foot!

[Bob]

If over a reasonable period of time you invest $1,500,000 in an internationally diversified portfolio of stocks with a yield of 4%, then you could probably have $60,000 per year for the rest of your life.

And, had you started that one year ago, you'd maybe have about $750,000.00 left? If you might need any of the money within a few years, none of that portion ought to be in any stock portfolio. Or, if ol' Bernie Madoff invested it for you, you'd have none of it left!

As an alternative, if you were, let's say, 60 years old and expected a life span of another 25 years, you could invest most of the money in guaranteed (FDIC) bank certificates and likely be guaranteed to have $60,000.00 a year or more for that time period. A lowly 3% cd would bring you $45,000.00 per year and you'd only start eating into principal at the rate of $15,000.00 per year. Then, of course, social security would kick in at age 62 and add another fair chunk.

All in all, if you've got a nest egg currently worth 1.5 million and you're 53 and still working, hell, you ought to be fine unless you lose a chunk of that to some unwise investments. It's actually nice to see somebody worrying about such things.

[z909]

And, had you started that one year ago, you'd maybe have about $750,000.00 left? If you might need any of the money within a few years, none of that portion ought to be in any stock portfolio. Or, if ol' Bernie Madoff invested it for you, you'd have none of it left!

Quite correct. That's why I suggested investing it over a period of time, to avoid pouring all the money in at near the top of the market.
You would also diversify it internationally, so as not to be over dependent on the performance of indebted & declining countries (UK, US, Spain etc). History shows all great & successful countries crumble.

[quiet1]

Without quoting specific posts above about having $1million or $2million in principal, or having an annual disposable income of $60k to $100k to spend in Thailand, I wonder what such a life style would be like?

As I have exposed before, I am not your typical "sex tourist" living in Thailand, as I have almost zero libido, so I guess that saves money on off fees and tips. (B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $20k-$21k per year)

I also am not a heavy drinker. Well, actually I can be, but I rarely go out to bars and do so. I actually can outdrink just about anybody, which when I was younger was a novelty. (I have a liver abnormality, and I somehow process alcohol differently than a "normal" person. I have *never* had a hangover.) I also don't enjoy drinking alone at home. Hence, my monthly alcohol consumption is B1,000 or less.

I own a modest condo, so I don't spend money on rent. My electricity is billed directly by the electricity company, so again lowest possible. I spend B1000/mo on a reasonable TT&T broadband internet plan.

I don't own a car or motosai, so no maintenance, insurance or petrol costs.

I'm not a clothes freak. I rotate a basic wardrobe of about 5 shirts, 3 slacks, 4 shorts, and 6 T-shirts. I have one or two sets of more formal clothes for travel. I don't attend weddings or funerals, so have no *really* formal stuff like a tux or even 2-piece suit.

All that as a prelude to say that I spend less than $1,000* per month living in Jomtien. I'd certainly be at a loss to spend $60k per year!

My reason to post is to perhaps balance some of the more extravagant lifestyles suggested above and, more in line with Smiles' post, to assure the forum stalkers who may look in upon this thread that a more modest means can defintely support retirement in Thailand.

*footnote: US$1,000 is currently B35,000, GBP 685, EURO 737, AUD 1400

[edited to correct: B730,000 ~ $20k-$21k per year]

[x in pattaya]

(B2,000 per day X 365 days/year = B730,000 ~ $10k-$11k per year)


*footnote: US$1,000 is currently B35,000, GBP 685, EURO 737, AUD 1400

So let's see, B730,000/ B35,000 comes out to $10,000 ???