Thai culture of Denial - the Reality

[ijustwannateach]

I think the Thais have a culture of denial. It is not simply hypocrisy or two-facedness, which is common in many countries- if there is some negative attribute which they wish to hide, they seem compelled not only to cover it up but to STRONGLY, VOCALLY deny it. This goes for so-called "Thai values" as well as individual character. For example, [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!]

THAI VALUES:
Thais are sexually conservative.
Thais are socially conservative.
Thais are calm and cool.

REALITIES:
Everone screws like rabbits.
Everyone has affairs.
Thais have terribly emotional storms.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS
I don't have many dates.
I don't go there.
I'm not materialistic.
Up to you!
I don't tell you lies!

REALITIES
I'm a slut.
It's my favorite place.
Show me the money!
I want it my way!
I'm a pathological liar!


Time after time, when I examine what my Thai friends/acquaintances take so much trouble to deny, I find the truth by reversing their denials. It's a technique I recommend, somewhat cynically.

"Steven"

[Brad the Impala]

Turn it around, which of your negative attributes do you publicly acknowledge to acquaintances?

[romania]

I think the Thais have a culture of denial. It is not simply hypocrisy or two-facedness, which is common in many countries- if there is some negative attribute which they wish to hide, they seem compelled not only to cover it up but to STRONGLY, VOCALLY deny it. This goes for so-called "Thai values" as well as individual character. For example, [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!]

THAI VALUES: Farang values
Thais are sexually conservative. Farangs ditto
Thais are socially conservative. Farangs ditto
Thais are calm and cool. Farangs ditto

REALITIES:
Everone screws like rabbits. Farangs off a different boy or two every night
Everyone has affairs. Farangs off other boys even when the have a 'b/f'
Thais have terribly emotional storms. Gay Farangs throw a wobbly if someone dare not bow and scrape to their every whim

PERSONAL STATEMENTS
I don't have many dates. Farang ditto
I don't go there. Farang ditto
I'm not materialistic. Farang ditto
Up to you! Farangs ditto
I don't tell you lies! Farang ditto

REALITIES
I'm a slut. (Farang) I will go with as many boys as I can for sex
It's my favorite place. (Farang) I dont' tell people I go there but I love the sleazy places
Show me the money! (Farang) I'm not paying you 1500 Baht, I'll give you 1000
I want it my way! (Farang) I am paying you so you will do what I want, remember I'm a rich farang
I'm a pathological liar! (Farang) I will buy you a ticket to my home country and I am not a butterfly,

"Steven"

The above are opinions, claims and boasts made by members of this forum, so where's the difference with farangs?

[x in pattaya]

Time after time, when I examine what my Thai friends/acquaintances take so much trouble to deny, I find the truth by reversing their denials. It's a technique I recommend, somewhat cynically.

"Steven"

Why do you feel the need to examine/accuse/label your "friends" and put them in a position where they need to deny something? Generally everyone is more open and honest about themselves with real friends who they trust ... although if they are real friends they probably wouldn't be put in a position of denying that they are sluts in any kind of a serious context.

Totally honest relationships between Thai and farang are going to be rare... from either side. We usually like to project ourselves as we think we ought to be rather than as we actually are. If you are confrontational or want to discuss highly personal issues with someone who regards you as being alien (alien in so many ways) then the responses will be emotional.

People often like to discuss the Thai need to "save face," but farang often seem more ballistic when it comes to preserving their illusions of superiority than do Thais.

Of course, with farang, it's never the money (or whatever ... usually money), it's the principle.

I doubt very much those you are talking about could be categorized as friends and I also doubt that the people of your acquaintance are from a very broad spectrum of Thai Society.

[ijustwannateach]

Actually, I'm just being very honest about what I've observed. People in ALL countries are hypocritical and two-faced (and, for the most part, fairly ignorant), especially about sexual matters. It just happens that here in Thailand they go to great pains vocally to deny their actual self-perceived faults aloud. I don't know why/if anyone is actually fooled by it- appears to be some sort of psychological reflex here.

Once I was on a first date with a young man who went to GREAT pains to emphasize (in exactly these words, his English was excellent) that he was "not materialistic." He brought it up repeatedly. So I made an effort to mention how little my salary was (I understated it considerably) and - whammo! Never heard from him again! Every person in Thailand who has ever insisted he was not lying to me was, and you can just hear the mental eye-rolling going on whenever anyone talks about the Thai value of faithfulness to one's partners.

Not different in respect to hypocrisy from other places EXCEPT in this "announcement" respect. If you think people ARE fundamentally different here in this aspect then you're still in your "honeymoon" phase of cultural adjustment.

"Steven"

[Gone Fishing]

The above are opinions, claims and boasts made by members of this forum, so where's the difference with farangs?

Very little difference, in my experience.

The biggest difference I have seen is that whereas some farangs consider that a problem shared is a problem halved, and consequently pour out their sorrows to anyone prepared to listen, look for consolation from their drinkng companions, and spend all their life moaning, Thais often do not and they consider that their private feelings are simply private and that it is wrong to burden others with them.

Soon after I first moved here I found myself in the very strange position of having a Thai casual friend pour out his problems about his wife sleeping around and he literally cried on my shoulder because he felt that he could not talk about it to any of his Thai friends - artly because he would have lost face, but also because it was his problem, not theirs. As I was a farang, and so did not fit into the Thai system, unburdening himsef to me was somehow different!

[Art]

PERSONAL STATEMENTS

Actions speak louder than words. Aren't we all empiricists?

Thais [...] consider that their private feelings are simply private and that it is wrong to burden others with them. [...] As I was a farang, and so did not fit into the Thai system, unburdening himself to me was somehow different!

Are Thais pseudo-extrovert introverts? Quite a challenging mixture. Many a Thai son can not discuss his misery with his beloved mother as he does not dare to worry her, and our »crisis intervention« may prevent the worst.

But even for us it is exceedingly difficult to talk with a young Thai about his potential mental illness or his imminent suicide ...

[ceejay]

Aren't we all empiricists?

Well, in the wise words of Reginald Perrin "We can't all be solipsists"

[Smiles]

" ... [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!] ... "

Use the 'List' feature for, er, lists. It automatically indents the list and left justifies. Also adds in cute little dots or numbers if you want to get really fancy.

For example:

THAI VALUES:

• Thais are sexually conservative.
• Thais are socially conservative.
• Thais are calm and cool.

REALITIES:

• Everone screws like rabbits.
• Everyone has affairs.
• Thais have terribly emotional storms.

PERSONAL STATEMENTS

• I don't have many dates.
• I don't go there.
• I'm not materialistic.
• Up to you!
• I don't tell you lies!

REALITIES

• I'm a slut.
• It's my favorite place.
• Show me the money!
• I want it my way!
• I'm a pathological liar!

(The actual content of course, is another issue altogether. In this case, just a pack of shopworn cliches).

[fedssocr]

Once I was on a first date with a young man who went to GREAT pains to emphasize (in exactly these words, his English was excellent) that he was "not materialistic." He brought it up repeatedly. So I made an effort to mention how little my salary was (I understated it considerably) and - whammo! Never heard from him again!

How do you know this was the reason you never heard from him again? Could it have been your general attitude that turned him off? Some other trait?

We all have our issues. Sounds like you have plenty of them.

[Ron-Heng Vancouver]

Steven
I am sorry you have such a stilted view of the Thai people and Thai / Farang relationships.
I have been in love with a very handsome sexy Thai man since he was 24 yrs old.( I am now 59) We are approaching our 12th year together (we both moved to Vancouver BC so we could live legally as a gay couple). He is calm, sweet, loyal, gives of himself. We both contribute to our bank accounts, purchased together a great condo on the Vancouver waterfront, and have great jobs. We share a wonderful life here in vancouver. There is a plan to spend winters in BKK in a couple of years.

We both are professionals. Our families are close (in fact., his gandmom, sister, her GF, and sister) are currently visiting us. When here, they pay for everything and take us everywhere. My BF has great integrity and all his friends I meet in Bangkok are also very nice. In 12 years, my BF has never raised his voice, and never cheated although he is sought after by many Asian and white men here in Vancouver.

When I have visited Bangkok, the family and all their friends treat me like Royalty and cannot do enough for me. They are devoted Buddhists and respect everyone. Indeed my life and who I am have changed and become enriched because of my Thai partner.

I am sorry but I have not seen what you have observed - I suspect you have been burned like many others here.

[Elephantspike]

(The actual content of course, is another issue altogether. In this case, just a pack of shopworn cliches).

Also both of the above posts by "ijustwannateach" as well as that username, are copied verbatim from a post made a few years ago by a moderator on thaivisa.com. I'm not sure what this guy's game is, but the original author has contacted me about it, and I have deleted the above member "ijustwannateach" from the database and invited the "real" one to regester that name here.

[Ijustwannateach]

Hello, gents, sorry about having my stalker visit you- some sad types out there.

It's true that the above was a message I actually posted verbatim several years back, but it is taken very much out of context (I was in a long and heated argument with a dislikeable, cranky type who had the 'rose-coloured lenses' thing going on.) I'm only that cynical *part* of the time these days- though I do believe that there's a lot of compartmentalization and doublethink going on in terms of Thai Culture (with a big C) and what I actually see Thais doing.

Hope to talk things over more with you in the future. Many thanks to Elephantspike for helping me clear this up!

[thrillbill]

" ... [I tried to put these on the same lines in a parallel fashion but this darn editor keeps deleting the formatting spaces I put in!] ... "

Use the 'List' feature for, er, lists. It automatically indents the list and left justifies. Also adds in cute little dots or numbers if you want to get really fancy.

For example:

THAI VALUES:
[list][*]Thais are sexually conservative.
[*]Thais are socially conservative.

****************************
FYI The "dots" are called bullets.

[Elephantspike]

The posts on thaivisa were made years before that blog post was.