[Lunchtime O'Booze]

Since living and traveling overseas, it has made me realized how patriotic Americans are (I am also from the USA). I thought this would be normal for people who lived in democratic countries, but it's not (I am not counting soccer games.) You'll see Americans flying the "red, white, and blue" in front of their houses, the flag stuck on their cars, and even wearing flag pins on their jackets. As the King in Thailand helps to unite the various people in Thailand, patriotism seems to unite Americans. It can even be used as a propaganda tool by Washington giving the impression that if you disagree with foreign policy, then you are unpatriotic. If you are a REAL patriot, then you'll join the army. Now it will be interesting how "American patriotism" will be campaigned for the taxpayers to "pay the bills" of the fat cats and not get pissed off.

well I'm a "patriotic American" ( as in Ich bin ein Berliner ) but I find all those US flags in the front gardens a little bit creepy.

Sad, as along with the Union Jack it's the best designed flag on the planet.

[homintern]

Displays of flags everywhere, including on clothing and uniforms, to me, shows a real sense of insecurity.

I loved the Robin Williams character in Man of the Year, talking about the American flag on a g-string, "disappearing up grandma's crack"

[Chao Na]

Displays of flags everywhere, including on clothing and uniforms, to me, shows a real sense of insecurity.

I loved the Robin Williams character in Man of the Year, talking about the American flag on a g-string, "disappearing up grandma's crack"

And I thought you hated all American films!

[kenc]

...Disaffected colonials accounted for between 20% and 30% of the inhabitants of the colonies, and were mostly merchants and aristocratic plantation owners like Washington, deeply in debt to London financiers....

Ah HA! That then explains all the Merchants and Aristocrats fighting the Redcoats at Lexington and Concord!

Next on "British History Tonight" - how Ghandi and a bunch of elitist educated Indian Lawyers in the National Congress and disaffected Indian merchants duped the Indian people into fighting for their independence. The whole mess was only over a paltry salt tax.

....now you know why the end of the American Empire arouses so-called anti-American feelings!!

Yes, I agree. I've been trying to tell that to my countrymen for years. And a lot of times (not always) all I seem to get back is garbage like "how dare you compare the Patriots to the Terrorists!!!"

I just roll my eyes and sigh.

[Wesley]

One of the better American threads, and most even Homiturn's I can agree with. It's so rare to see some although kicking and screaming all the way to the end agree that the USA is not so bad, nor is the world coming to and end any time soon lest some asteroid fall out of orbit, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now. The Christian right wants we to believe the end are near so that we will not bet on tomorrow as a new opportunity. I remain with my glass half full almost all the time, even now. I even yet finally see some hope for Homiturn whom after this I will forgive all former arguments realizing he just enjoys pushing your buttons and actually does have a brain after all. I have always known Mr. Booze was all there, now I am sure that even Homiturn may as well not be such a bad chap after all. It was amusing to see him come out of his self imposed shell and speak from his heart. Although, I am sure tomorrow he will wake up in full drag realizing, he had taken his medication too early when he wrote the points in this thread.

Wes

[555]

A lone figure burst into a room in Washington a few days ago and demanded billions of dollars for needy bankers or the world's economic system would collapse. Pity he wasn't shot like any other terrorist would have been.

[cottmann]

...Disaffected colonials accounted for between 20% and 30% of the inhabitants of the colonies, and were mostly merchants and aristocratic plantation owners like Washington, deeply in debt to London financiers....

Ah HA! That then explains all the Merchants and Aristocrats fighting the Redcoats at Lexington and Concord!...

Okay, so my comment of 20-30% was a little low, but "Historians now estimate that 40 percent of the colonists supported the revolution, 20 percent remained with England, and 40 percent were neutral, or didn’t care. Almost 18,000 Loyalists joined the British army and fought against the United States." (http://www.olvera-street.com/html/fourth_of_july.html)

On the other hand, "No one knows for sure how many Americans remained loyal to Great Britain. The Massachusetts political leader, John Adams, thought about thirty-three percent of the colonists supported independence, thirty-three percent supported Britain, and thirty-three percent supported neither side. Most history experts today think that about twenty per cent of the colonists supported Britain. They say the others were neutral or supported whichever side seemed to be winning, "

and,

"As many as thirty thousand Americans fought for the British during the war. Others helped Britain by reporting the movements of American rebel troops." (VOA Special, THE MAKING OF A NATION #14 - American Revolution: Whose Side Are You On?, By Nancy Steinbach, May 29, 2003, online at http://www.manythings.org/voa/03/030529mn_t.htm).

As historians such as Calhoon have estimated that 15-20 percent of the white population were Loyalists, while Middlekauff estimated that about 19 percent of the white population, remained loyal to Britain, and others state that the Loyalist received active support from 40-45% of the population.

There was certainly not unanimous support among the colonists for independence.

On debt, on George Washington: "In addition, he shared the usual planter's dilemma in being continually in debt to his London agents" (http://sc94.ameslab.gov/TOUR/gwash.html). Washington used an inheritance from his step-daughter to pay them off. Thomas Jefferson and others were also deeply indebted to London financiers.

"In 1776, the mainland colonies in the Americans owed London financiers 1.3 million pounds" (p.124, RC Nash, The organization trade and finance in the British Atlantic colonies, in The organization of Atlantic Economy during the 17th and 18th centuries, ed. Peter Coclanis.)

Part of the reason for this huge debt was that the British had not allowed the colonials to establish their own banks. Supporting the revolution allowed the merchants, etc., to do so and, until recently, whoever met a poor banker?

[francois]

, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now.
Wes[/quote]
Same as the dinosaurs, as fossils.

[Wesley]

, I submit we will still be here in some form or another hundreds of thousands of years from now.
Wes

Same as the dinosaurs, as fossils.[/quote]

I suggest that we may be here in some form or another, why certainly, if I can learn to spell it’s a sure sign that there is yet still hope for the human race. We tend to do all that is wrong, yet we survive in some way or another .Lesser and greater civilizations have fallen and gone with the idea that surely the end must be near, we are still here. I can remember the stories of the rapture and the soon Apocalypse as a kid, yet we remain. In the end certainly some of us like cock roaches will remain in some shape form or greater repulsive manner. I am not a dooms day kind of person. I tend to think we will outthink out demise as surely as the Americans will figure out a way to still drive a car with out oil. We could go the way of the dinasaures but it’s more likely than not we will survive ourselves in some manner not yet invented.