Why would any government pass a law aimed at a tiny minority? Knowing the mindset, I would think (if this is a real law), its aimed at getting more cash out of the many thousands of relatively wealthy western and Asian tourists and long termers who live in all parts of the country. And why Shan, why not Tai, Karen, or Indians or any other small minority group?

Logic, Henry Cate style:

Driving without a license is against the law, for all nationalities including Thais
My Shan buddies drive without a license and get busted
conclusion:  the Thai cops are singling out only Shan illegal drivers

What I want to know is how a Thai cop can spot a Shan on the fly?  Do they have a gold "S" on their shirts, or what?  Do they sit by the roadside and go "Thai...Lisu...Farang...Jap...Arab...SHAN!  GET HIM!'  Perhaps in Henry Cate's fantasy world.

Of course, when it comes down to it, Henry is griping about someone breaking the law and getting caught.  My first thought would be, well DON'T BREAK THE LAW!

But, that's Chao Na logic, not Henry Cate logic.

fattman wrote:

Why would any government pass a law aimed at a tiny minority? Knowing the mindset, I would think (if this is a real law), its aimed at getting more cash out of the many thousands of relatively wealthy western and Asian tourists and long termers who live in all parts of the country. And why Shan, why not Tai, Karen, or Indians or any other small minority group?

Well, the American internment of the Japanese, and the Nazi laws and procedures against the Jews come to mind immediately.  Why would the Khomeini government persecute not only the Jews but the Baha'i?  Why would Black Africans have expelled the Indians?

Would you like a little more time to think about this?   This pattern of behavior is not rare by any means at all.  In America of yore, black people were mostly slaves and counted as (as I recall) three-fifths of a human being.  Jim Crow laws only began disappearing in the 1960's.

And I haven't mentioned the most obvious example of them all: Christian/Puritan governments and their habit of passing laws against gay men!!!  "Why would any government do such a thing?"

It is a huge fallacy to believe that human actions are reasonable, or even correctable by reason.

As I understand it, it is Thai Government policy to discourage the millions of Shan in Burma from coming to Thailand. Those, 200,000?, who have been accepted as  legal refugees, are required to remain in refugee camps. Other Shan, in Thailand illegally, are considered to be economic migrants, and liable to deportation.

Thailand's first responsibility is understandably towards it's own nationals, and to make it easier for Shan in the country illegally to remain, would be to encourage further migration. In the great world of human tragedy, of course we would like all the peoples of Burma to be treated better both within and without their country, and we all have our own favourite causes. However it is easy to imagine what problems could be caused by a further significant influx of refugees, or economic migrants.

The Shan are not being persecuted, they are being treated like all the other economic migrants from Laos, Cambodia and Burma. As such they are very vulnerable to unscrupulous employers or policemen, but I think that even those moved by their situation are naive not to be aware of the larger picture. That includes not believing everything that you are told by an illegal immigrant, who has been told it by a corrupt policeman extorting a bribe.

Oh good God, Henry.  What do you think whinging endlessly here is going to do to help your law-breaking friends?  Write a letter to the editor, picket the police department, or set yourself on fire in the town square.  Make yourself useful.

Brad the Impala wrote:

As I understand it, it is Thai Government policy to discourage the millions of Shan in Burma from coming to Thailand. Those, 200,000?, who have been accepted as  legal refugees, are required to remain in refugee camps. Other Shan, in Thailand illegally, are considered to be economic migrants, and liable to deportation.

Thailand's first responsibility is understandably towards it's own nationals, and to make it easier for Shan in the country illegally to remain, would be to encourage further migration. In the great world of human tragedy, of course we would like all the peoples of Burma to be treated better both within and without their country, and we all have our own favourite causes. However it is easy to imagine what problems could be caused by a further significant influx of refugees, or economic migrants.

The Shan are not being persecuted, they are being treated like all the other economic migrants from Laos, Cambodia and Burma. As such they are very vulnerable to unscrupulous employers or policemen, but I think that even those moved by their situation are naive not to be aware of the larger picture. That includes not believing everything that you are told by an illegal immigrant, who has been told it by a corrupt policeman extorting a bribe.

I think just quoting this post does the job.

What a perfectly lovely topic heading under which to slip in a small farewell.

Life has made thoughts of even a brief return to Thailand pure fantasy.  For many reasons--not the least of them financial--I cannot see myself returning there any time soon.  So sticking around this board is committing the Buddhist sin of inflaming desire.  OK, maybe that's not a Buddhist sin...but it ought to be.

Time to move on to something else--maybe exciting, maybe not--worth fantasizing about.  If my world changes (and if the world's militaries aren't hording the last of the jet-fuel) I'll at least have Bob to clue me in on the latest (with pictures, no less).

My only other reason for being here is to argue the relative morality of different strains of whore-mongering--and that has gotten old.

I will miss the snappy dialogue and all the well-dressed posters.  I do so love you all, except the ones I don't.

Anyway.  Consider this the anti-flounce.  A good life to you.

Dave.

Gone Fishing is on your IGNORE list.

The first person who gave me his opinion was a farang, since departed, whom I considered a complete sex-maniac.  The restaurant under discussion was Sum Sabaay, a "muu kathaa" joint about 300 yards away from my house.  The sex-maniac farang was overjoyed to find available Shan boys working at this place.  And, most especially, they were inexpensive.  This particular sex maniac tried to get away for 300 baht, but would pay 500 for "something special."  More than that, he had sex (as far as I could tell) every day -- and his pathetic attempts at pornographic pictures revealed that he was scraping the bottom of the barrel.  He spent all this time having sex with homely boys.

But his opinion of the restaurant ran as follows: "Oh! It's great!  The manager is gay, and only hires cute Shan boys to work as waiters there!!  I have discovered a Secret Paradise in Thailand!!"

That day, or the next, I mentioned this to my former boyf, who replied that this was all total and complete bullshit.  My former boyfriend has a lively interest in boys, and has spent a number of nights chatting and drinking with the Shan boys at that restaurant (Sum Sabaay).  What he told me was very interesting, and very different.

"The manager of that restaurant takes the pink cards of the Shan boys and locks them up in his office.  That means they cannot change jobs.  He pays them 4000 baht per month, and the penalty for eating one BITE of food at the restaurant is 200 baht.  He also makes them wash out the "kathaa" used in his "muu kathaa" place with bathroom cleaner. And..the boys aren't cute."

Can anyone really wonder why boys in a situation like this, straight out of Dickens, would be willing to jack off for 300 baht?

"Please sir, could I have some more?"

Henry Cate wrote:

Brad the Impala wrote:

As I understand it, it is Thai Government policy to discourage the millions of Shan in Burma from coming to Thailand. Those, 200,000?, who have been accepted as  legal refugees, are required to remain in refugee camps. Other Shan, in Thailand illegally, are considered to be economic migrants, and liable to deportation.

Thailand's first responsibility is understandably towards it's own nationals, and to make it easier for Shan in the country illegally to remain, would be to encourage further migration. In the great world of human tragedy, of course we would like all the peoples of Burma to be treated better both within and without their country, and we all have our own favourite causes. However it is easy to imagine what problems could be caused by a further significant influx of refugees, or economic migrants.

The Shan are not being persecuted, they are being treated like all the other economic migrants from Laos, Cambodia and Burma. As such they are very vulnerable to unscrupulous employers or policemen, but I think that even those moved by their situation are naive not to be aware of the larger picture. That includes not believing everything that you are told by an illegal immigrant, who has been told it by a corrupt policeman extorting a bribe.

I think just quoting this post does the job.

Nicely thought out reasoning - and what about the Hmong. The government have just deported more of them. I don't think the Shan have too much to worry about if its just getting fined for not having a license...

Gone Fishing wrote:

Brad the I, not picking on you as you may imagine, but your view of all Shan here legally being required to remain in refugee camps is not strictly correct; a considerable number, depending mainly on the area they are from, have had dispensation from HM to remain here permanently, are allowed to travel freely between Thailand and Myanmar on their Myanmar passport, and are issued with a Thai ID card (with a "pink" background) giving them the same rights as Thais. I know two, one working in Pattaya, one near Rayong

Happy to be corrected, as I don't know a lot about the subject, but just wanted to widen the perspective.

Ok, educate me what exactlly a Shan is. My Issan Thai BF doesn't seem to know what I am asking when I say the word, "Shan" so I must be pronouncing it wrong to him. I take it as a region north of Thailand (Burma) where these tribes people cross the border (illegally) to work for peanuts?   Too bad they don't have the benefits as the illegal Mexicans that work in the US.

Well, your friend from Isaan will probably understand tai yai.  "Shan" is actually a Burmese term for people who refer to themselves as "tai" -- "free."

The Shan, or tai-yai, are very, very close to the Thai in terms of genes, origin, and language.  The Shan language, along with Thai and Laotian, forms a large language "family" which is closely interrelated.  In fact, and this point is a little complicated, that Burmese term for the tai-yai, "Shan," is actually a corruption of "Siam."  Which means that the ethnic Burmese look upon the tai-yai as just a bunch of Thai cousins.

At this point, we need to get into the relation between ethnic groups in Burma.  The Burmese "proper" speak a language completely unrelated to Thai or any Tai family -- Burmese comes from the Sino-Tibetan side (as do Karen and Akha, btw).  And, from all the available evidence, the wicked and corrupt government of Burma is basically practicing genocide and mass theft against the Shan.  It seems that the Burmese have decided that all Shan territory should actually belong to them, so they are stealing it all, and wantonly killing any Shan who have objections.  Since the Shan have no arms (and no allies), they have been fleeing to Thailand in droves.  The Shan States in Burma are now almost depopulated of young men, and estimates run as high as 2 million Shan (!) in Thailand, compared to an estimated 6 million total.

For more information, drop the word "Shan" into Google, and happy hunting!

Oppressed minorities

"Charm Tong belongs to Burma’s largest ethnic minority, the Shan. Ethnic minorities help make Burma a land of dazzling human diversity, with groups such as the Naga, Akha, Kachin, Karenni, and Pa-O making up a third of the 50 million population.

cont..

"Unlike some other ethnic minorities from Burma, the Shan have no refugee status in Thailand, and therefore no official protection or support. Many risk arrest and ill-treatment as illegal manual labourers, and desperate young women and men are lured into the sex trade."

http://siu.no/magazine/conferences-and-publications/global-knowledge/issues/no-2-2006/charm-tong

Henry Cate wrote:

He also makes them wash out the "kathaa" used in his "muu kathaa" place with bathroom cleaner.

Perhaps you can explain why any restaurant owner would "make" his staff use bathroom cleaner to clean dishes when dish washing fluid is no more expensive.