Smiles wrote:

billyhouston wrote:

... there are many Thais who have still not forgotten 1767CE . . . Sorry for such a long post but it's a subject very dear to my heart ... "

A bleeding heart is all well and good, but what exactly is the (apparently) unforgotten 1767CE?
Little you say in your long post on this issue is of any value until the Board Dregs here are able to be in-the-know as to what you are talking about, non-Orwellian-wise.

Cheers ...

Presumably a reference to the 1767 Burmese invasion of Thailand and the collapse of the Ayutthaya kingdom, though I don't believe that the Shan were part of the Burmese kingdom at that time.

Right & thanks!  

homintern wrote:

I assume from the context of the thread that you're responding to boygeenyus' latest incarnation (whom I have on {Ignore}, naturally).  The Lad is famous for asserting that no-one needs to bribe the police, you just call their bluff and go to the local police station to pay the fine.  The fact that he's white and speaks excellent Thai (so he says) has not one jot or tittle to do with it.  He also claims to be best friends with some high-ranking and (get this) non-corrupt police officers.  I'm not sure why anyone would boast acquaintance with a policeman in any country, but that's Our Lad for you

Only an idiot would put "high-ranking" and "non-corrupt" in the same sentence when referring to a Thai policeman.  It is completely impossible for a Thai cop to rise to a high rank without being corrupt.

Or, at least, corrupt by Western cultural standards.

Of course, here at SGT we are all of the same mind:  that people looking to impose Western cultural standards on Thais (ie., the evil NGO's) should be told to f-off.

Or does that only refer to people looking to impose Western cultural standards pertaining to sex?

Chao Na wrote:

Life's tough when you're an illegal alien tooling around on a motorcycle without a license.  I suggest you try the same thing as a farang and see if you get off for cheaper than the Shan do.

First, the arrested Shan people were not "illegal aliens."  They all had work permits and were living in Thailand legally, subject to the "Special Laws" such as "no travel" and "curfew at 10 PM."

Second, to fulfill your fantasy, I would have to let my visa expire and become an illegal alien.  (People say there are many such farang living in Thailand.) And then the police would actually have to stop me -- something which has never happened to me in my lucky farang life, UNLESS I was driving a car or truck with non-farang passengers.

If the police DID ever stop me, I would simply show them my expired U.S. license and smile.  I doubt if they would progress to asking for my passport, but, if they did, I would obviously be looking at something much more serious than a $USD 60.00 fine.

And your point was??

If your buddies are here legally, they are eligible for Thai drivers' licenses.  Why on earth have they not gotten one?  What you are describing is completely by-the-book handling of people driving without a license -- whether that person is Thai or foreign.  Why should we have sympathy for people who are apparently too lazy to abide by the law and get a simple driver's license?

billyhouston wrote:

Met a Shan friend at the Friday Shan market in Chiang Mai. She had also had her bike taken away and had to pay Bht2000 to get it back. If she had any sense, Bht500 'Tea money' would have sorted the matter and saved her Bht1500. Shan without papers cannot register a bike in their own name and have to use someone else, which makes them vulnerable to all sorts of scams.

The way in which police haunt Wat Pa Pao and Wat Ku Tao on Shan festival days is shameful. They extort money from those who can least afford it and cannot complain.... may they rot in hell.

Agreed, one hundred percent.  Shameful.  Utterly and completely shameful, especially for a country which claims to respect the Buddhist religion.

On High Buddhist Holidays, the god-damned flies gather to arrest those who are making merit.

And they call their ill-gotten gains nam jai.

Quote:

Shan without papers cannot register a bike in their own name and have to use someone else, which makes them vulnerable to all sorts of scams.

Doesn't "without papers" mean "here illegally"?

Isn't it a shame people here illegally don't have the same legal rights as those who are!  Oh the injustice!

Brad the Impala wrote:

Did he have a license to ride a motorbike or not?  Haven't we been round this mulberry bush before?

Oh Joy, Brad and I are in agreement again!! I had better make the most of it while it lasts!

Of course we have been over it before, more than once, as with the boyfriend and his brother detained at the border for "being Shan" when the reality was that the brother had an ID card altered with correcting fluid.

billyhouston wrote:

It is not possible for a Shan person (here and in future I'm talking about those coming from Shan State and not those born in Thailand) either to get a driving licence or to register a motorbike.

Not correct. It is perfectly possible for them to get a "pink" tinted Thai ID card, followed by a driving licence and then to register a motorbike. A friend of mine ("coming from Shan State and not born in Thailand"), now living and working near Rayong, has done so and he tells me that the problem is that many are not here legally and they "share" ID cards; as such, they can hardly blame the Thais for their predicament.

And by "student" does HC mean "off", as before?

Chao Na wrote:

...Or, at least, corrupt by Western cultural standards.......

Such as those that apply to certain western businesses and politicians, e.g., beginning with Enron, etc., and ending with Berlusconi, Aherne, Chirac, the British cash for honors politicians, and countless others?

cottmann wrote:

Chao Na wrote:

...Or, at least, corrupt by Western cultural standards.......

Such as those that apply to certain western businesses and politicians, e.g., beginning with Enron, etc., and ending with Berlusconi, Aherne, Chirac, the British cash for honors politicians, and countless others?

Yes, those standards.  Not sure what your point is?

Chao Na wrote:

cottmann wrote:

Chao Na wrote:

...Or, at least, corrupt by Western cultural standards.......

Such as those that apply to certain western businesses and politicians, e.g., beginning with Enron, etc., and ending with Berlusconi, Aherne, Chirac, the British cash for honors politicians, and countless others?

Yes, those standards.  Not sure what your point is?

My point is that corruption is universal, by either eastern or western standards. Thai police may rise to the top by being corrupt (as you mentioned in your earlier post) but police corruption is not limited to Thailand. For example, some years ago, in Australia, the Queensland Government's Fitzgerald Inquiry revealed police corruption reaching as high as both the then-current police commissioner (Sir Terry Lewis) and the former commissioner.

You are correct that corruption is "universal", if by that you mean that it occurs in every society known to mankind.

I strongly disagree with you, however, if you are stating that the cultural standards of what is and what is not corrupt are the same everywhere.  In fact, they vary enormously.  People referring to someone being "corrupt" are usually referring to corruption by their own cultural standards.

Chao Na wrote:

You are correct that corruption is "universal", if by that you mean that it occurs in every society known to mankind.

I strongly disagree with you, however, if you are stating that the cultural standards of what is and what is not corrupt are the same everywhere.  In fact, they vary enormously.  People referring to someone being "corrupt" are usually referring to corruption by their own cultural standards.

I don't disagree about the cultural variations in terms of what defines corruption. I'm sure no westerner who takes home spare pens, who makes personal phone calls on an office telephone or who surfs the Internet at work would regard those activities as corruption, i.e., the misuse of entrusted power for private gain.

cottmann wrote:

I don't disagree about the cultural variations in terms of what defines corruption. I'm sure no westerner who takes home spare pens, who makes personal phone calls on an office telephone or who surfs the Internet at work would regard those activities as corruption, i.e., the misuse of entrusted power for private gain.

Oh dear.  Don't tell me The Lad is trying that story about his mother and the postman again?  He's the sort of person who believes that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights doesn't mean "universal" when talking about Thailand.  It's perfectly acceptable for the Taliban to insist that girls don't deserve education; to say otherwise would be kow-towing to Western "norms".  Converts always assume their new love is a special case, and The Lad's conversion to Siamism is no exception

I just talked with the latest Shan victim of this nonsense, and he offered a pretty clear explanation of the situation.  There is, in fact, a new law, passed by the new democratically-elected government, which specifies that the crime of driving without a license shall be punished with a fine of 200 baht for Thai nationals, but that the fine shall be 2,000 baht for non-citizens (aliens).

This would seem to be bad enough on its face: imagine Germany passing a similar law and the ensuing uproar.  But the key here obviously lies in selective enforcement.  After all, the Chiang Mai cops could have a field day looking for the Thai licenses possessed by Japanese, Englishmen, and other tourists.  Or legal residents like me: I'm still an alien.  But -- again -- the uproar would be huge and instantaneous, and might actually cut into tourist revenues.  So this new law is enforced against exactly one group of aliens: the Shan.  As billyhouston pointed out, the Shan make an "ideal" group to victimize because they are so helpless.  Many of them cannot even compose a letter to the editor in the Thai language.

So it's really a no-win situation.  On the one hand, LEGAL Shan guest workers do not have the right to obtain a driver's license OR to own a motor vehicle.  So then the police turn around and bust them for driving without a license.

I'd appreciate any more information about this situation.  In particular, has anyone ever heard of this new law being enforced against anyone who is not Shan?  It sure looks like a "designer law" to me...