ZZZ,



I think you're right about Thai's viewing SEX and LOVE as two different things, for the simple fact that they are two different things.



Personally, I would never consider going to bed with another guy, nor would I expect my Thai BF to, if we had in fact, entered into a committed full-time serious relationship.  When, and if I ever, I find myself committed to this type of relationship, it will mark the point in which I am in LOVE with him to the point that I feel confident making this type of commitment, and understand, to the best of my ability, that he loves me as well and has the capability of making the same commitment.  At that point, if I have an itch to scratch, he can scratch it for me, and the same like wise.



The scenario you describe, where two people, supposedly committed to each via the bond of LOVE, still have sex with other mates is one of the main reasons why so many relationships fail, regardless of sexual orientaion culture, age, etc.  



If the Thai/farang relationship is make-pretend LOVE, as so many appear to be, then I guess everything is fine and dandy.  The two partners simply tell each other they LOVE each other, the seasoned farang keeps his fragile emotions in tact, his BF gets to pay the electric bill on time, and all's well.  But if it were a REAL relationship, meaning the two actually were in LOVE with each other and committed to each other in a life-long bond, having sex with other people would feel wrong to them.  I'm not saying that it wouldn't happen...I'm just saying it would FEEL WRONG, because this violates the very core of the LOVE bond between any two people, and once it's gone...it's gone forever.



There lies the difference between the life of a Butterfly and the life of a totally committed person who's in LOVE, and no one (IMO) has the ability to be both things simultaneously.



I made these remarks knowing full well that I'll probably get slammed to hell-and-back, but that's the way I see it.  If you're content with a half-filled cup, God bless you, but there's a full cup waiting out there somewhere, I just know it.  

  



 

zzz, I agree that Thais have less hangups about sex than those who labour under a J-C religious upbringing. But I think you are arguing that Thais see "sanuk sex" outside a relationship as inconsequential to a greater extent than I would agree to. If that were the case, then Thais would rarely be jealous ... and the only elaboration that point requires is to remember that Thai surgeons are the world's experts on reattaching severed penises ... because Thais are the world's most enthusiastic severers of their philandering partners' organs !



Perhaps Thais judge their own individual flings as inconsequential, but are not generally willing to give their partners the same leeway. And to be fair, they're hardly alone on that.



Although we're talking about "negotiated" open relationships here, I feel that it is often an unequal negotiation, for the reasons I outlined originally ... rather like the wives who have no say in their husband's mia noi.



Perhaps my main thesis could be restated, that Thais don't trust US FARANG to engage in "sanuk sex" outside a relationship without that reflecting a less than 100% committment to them.

 

I have a hard time reading comparisons of "gay relationships" to "hetero relationships."



Relationships are relationships and the boundaries are agreed to (and lived by) the people involved in that situation.



Gay, straight, whatever...  Your life and your relationship ar in YOUR hands, and that's all.



I have always believed in total monogamy, and have expected (no, demanded) the same from my previous American lovers.  This expectation has not changed -- nor has my behavior.



You see, what's good for the goose isn't always good for the gander.  We all control our own destiny.



I know many will disagree and many will say gay men are incapable of controlling their sexual urges -- but I SAY, bulls&*t!



-Chris  

ZZZ,



Please don't think that I was honing in on one single person or relationship when describing my perspective, because I wasn't.  I'm simply trying to look at life realistically and doing the best I can to guide myself along the right path.  Regarding the value and success of your own personal relationship, only you know what works for you, just as I believe I know what's best for me.      



Admittedly, I've only been "Out" for a few short years and don't claim to have the experience or scope of knowledge that most other gay farangs have, but that still doesn't change my perspective. I see the elements of honesty, trust, respect and security that you referred to as being the right ingredients all right, but these things just don't occur by magic. A person has to have the capacity to be honest with himself before he can ever hope be honest with his mate.  Easily said...but a tough journey.      



Also, If a relationship is relying on a RULE that having sex with another person is OK, as long as it isn't with a person that you care about, how is that CARE thing being measured.  What if you unintentionally start caring about the person who's temporarily scratching your back during the process.  Do you simply stop and find another person you don't care about to share your bed with?  Do you think that most people have the strength or fortitude to call it quits, or does that little voice between his legs call-out for one more lap around the track.  



I've been in love the same boy special for 2 1/2 years now, and believe me, being honest with him is, without question, the most difficult task I've ever had in my life.  To my amazement, he's still there, waiting to dedicate his time to me during my holiday and our adventures together continue.  I say this because my greatest fear is that if I were to ever deceive him by telling him that he is my one-and-only, or attempt to BUY his commitment to me by sending him monthly installments, It's possible that I would end up hurting him somewhere down the road.  And frankly, I love him too much for that.







  







  

Apparently even the people who believe in a god who demands human blood sacrifice (a.k.a. christians) are not too different from other people when it comes to heterosexual LTR.  This month's Atlantic magazine reports on a survey that states that roughly the same percentage of believers and non-believers divorce (or if living together, separate).  And even most of the Christian Taliban (a.k.a. fundamentalists) reject the words of the big JC himself, when he said that a man who divorces a woman and marries another is an adulterer

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We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

I have to agree with ZZZ again. There are major differences between how a male and female relate in a heterosexual relationship and two men in a gay relationship.

Men by nature are made to spread the seed. That is the biological role. It is in the genes. It is the base of survival for the species.

The heterosexual model is not working for straight people. Why do we want to copy something that does not work.

 

I find it interesting that someone can think that they can derive from a few posts on this Board whether they know if two (mostly) perfect strangers to them are in love or in a "real" or "normal" relationship. Just because something goes against what you want in a relationship or what works for you in a relationship, it has little relevance to what works for two other people. It is also ironic when people make judgments based not on their own real life experience in a relationship but on their ideals of what they think they would like to have in one. IMHO.



For me, I have never been nor will ever be in a monogamous relationship. With my current bf, I have been less sexually promiscuous than at any other point in my life, but I am not monogamous.  I know of many LT gay relationships that are open and few--very few--that are monogamous (and I am talking true LT here). I also know of several LT gay Thai/Thai relationships and all are open relationships. That is not to say that every gay relationship has to be open to be successful. Nor do I think one can judge an open relationship as a glass 1/2 full because one does not know the people in it.



Personally, for me, sex is sanuk, a physical act which I enjoy. A bf, or partner, is a much different thing. I can be monogamous to having only one bf (but know people in successful situations with more than one or in polygamous relationships). I can say that I have seen enough variations of relationships to definitely say that different things work for different people. I have even heard persuasive arguments that NO relationship is meant to last forever, monogamous or not. Who knows? As long as the people in the relationship are happy and are living by whatever values they cherish at the time.



Pete  



 

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I have even heard persuasive arguments that NO relationship is meant to last forever, monogamous or not.

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Here's another fascinating statement from someone who on his own admission extrapolated from the handful of relationships that he knows about to assert that there are "thousands" of the same - and then says that for gay men "a year equates to a lifetime".  Maybe it does when you're 35, but it doesn't convince me that we're dealing with a logical human being

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We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

My Senior Thesis for my BA in Psychology was titled:



Understanding the natural development of relationships.



What makes LTRs work? Give this a bit of thought;



IMHO, the following letters are the natural progression of ANY relationship:



K

T

L

R

S



These are all in DIRECT PROPORTION  to each other.



K= Know

The more you know each other...

Not jus know about each other but know eachother through living and sharing life experiences together. In Spanish we use the words "Saber" and "Conocer" Saber means to know about something and conocer means to know through experience. Head knowledge as opposed to heart knowledge.



T- Trust

The more you know someone the more you can discern whether or not you can trust them and to what degree.



Excresise:

Pick one person in your life and place them on a scale from 1 to 10 on how much you know ABOUT them. Be brutally and totally honest and as objective as you can be. Do you know what their favorite color was when they were 4 years old? Do you know EVERYTHING ABOUT them that could possible be known? If so, place them on the scale from 1 to 10 at a 10. Placing someone on the scale at a 10 really is unrealistic if not an impossibility. If the person you picked is a total stranger or almost a stranger place them on the scale at a 1.



Next using the same person and a similar scale, how well do you know that person through EXPERIENCING LIFE TOGETHER? Were you there when he was 12 and skinned his knee when he fell off of his bike ( or buffalo )? Have you experienced the whole range of life experiences that have helped to make him the person he is TODAY? If so, place him at a 10, again this should be VERY rare.



Now add the 2 numbers together. Now a new sclae, a trust scale from 1 to 20. The lower the number the less you should trust that person with your heart and pocketbook. The closer to the number 20, the more you should be able to trust that person.



L= Love

The anciet Greeks had 3 words for the word "love" Eros, Phileo and Agape. What type of love do you share with the other person? Eros is a romantic love that involves sensuality and sexuality. Phileo is a brotherly or friendship love. Agape is the type of love that a parent would have for a child. Understanding the type of love you share is important because many times partners are confused because they are not clear on what type of love they share and the expectations are different and roles played are different depending on the type.



I like to choose this definition for love, " Choosing the highest good for yourself first and then the other person." All of the emotions are there but a clear understanding of love really is about choice, either conscienciously or not.



Regardless, what follows naturally is this:

The more you KNOW each other, the more you can tell whether or not you can trust each other... The more you TRUST each other the more you will love each other. The more you LOVE each other the more you will...



R= Respect

To respect someone means to hold them in high regard. Often times deferring to them and compromising in matters of conflict. Respect grows with time and patience. It is a deeper understanding and willingness to accept your partners human failings and still believe in their internal goodness. I think the Thai Wai is a very good example of showing a respectful gesture. The higher you place your hands in the greeting the more respect you are showing to the other person. This accepts and acknowledges that we afford differing levels of respect to different people.



S= Serve



To serve some one does NOT mean to be subservient to them. It means being willing to do things to bring the other person happiness and comfort and joy in their lives. When I make a protien shake for my BF while he takes a shower to get ready to go work out...I am serving him. When he calls me to let me know he may be later in getting home from work... he is serving me. we go through our lives serving other people in superficial as well as deep and meaningful ways.



And so...

The more you know the more you trust. The more you trust the more you love. The more you love the more you respect. The more you respect the more you serve.



What causes LTRs to end?

People stop "knowing" each other. They stop discovering new things about each other and the trust slowly erodes over time along with the love, respect and the willingness to serve one another.



What causes LTRs to work?

Every day the pertners are interested in getting to know each other better. They invest time and energy into leaning new things about each other and are willing to work at and allow the relationship to grow.



The main problem with my paper, so said my professor is this:

It presupposes that BOTH parties WANT to be in the relationship. If one person does not want to put in the effort the whole thing can fall apart. But isn't that the way it is with everything?



ajarntrade



PS: I have, in my past life working in the field of Psychology lead many workshops and seminars in building relationships using this model in a variety of settings. $150.00 UDS per hour, thank you.

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Please let me make sure I'm understanding this correctly

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Actually, Dodger you are not understanding correctly.



Yes, my bf and I have set some goals together for the next five years; goals for me, goals for him, (mostly his goals), and goals for both of us (mainly a house in LOS and maybe a restaurant in the US if at all possible). It happened gradually over a period of months, and one day we had a long conservation about said goals. These were not set in the context of any quid pro quo agreement, but in a very earnest and loving manner as couples the world over set goals for their future. It is one of the best things I think I have done in my relationship, as we have clear expectations, and he feels very secure (which I know is  important for him).



You know aside from his allowance, I will spend about $2,000 US each year over the next five years and will buy a college education for one sister, a technical education for himself and another sister, an actual kitchen for his home (and not an outdoor kitchen), and some small income source to help support his two elderly parents. He could dump me, and I would still feel warm and fuzzy for helping him and his family improve their lot in life. The money is not overly significant to me, and the results of spending it are hugely significant to him. He is my bf; of course, I want him to have a better life. Why should I deny myself that pleasure or him that joy? So that people who do not know either of us will not assign our relationship to a mere money arrangement or call him a paid bf?  



You left out that I also expect the bf to have very good communication with me. As I said in another post, the bf and I talk on the phone several times each day for a total of about 5 hours a week.  I visit every 8 weeks or so. This communication is essential in our trust building and our knowledge of one another (see the post above). We are a very significant part of one another's daily lives.



Communicating about money and finances is just as important as communicating about most subjects, and IMHO, I believe many LOS relationships fail because there is never any communication on the subject and never any real compromise or goal setting in this area. I've always said money is the huge elephant in the corner of the room in regards to most Thai/farang relationships. However, it is a significant factor in most of these relationships. We ignore it at our peril.



Pete



    

ajarntrade,



I think your professor made a good observation, and if you consider the point he was making in the context of a Thai/Farang relationship it becomes even more pronounced.  



In the majority of cases, the fundemantal NEEDS of the farang and his Thai counterpart are different to begin with.  The farangs primary NEEDS are EMOTIONAL and centered on love, compassion, friendship and sexual gratification.  His Thai partners NEEDS are PHYSICAL and focused, first and foremost, on receiving security through financial aid, which in term, provides him merit by supporting the needs of his immediate family members.  In this all-to-common scenario, both parties desire a relationship, but on completely different plateau's.



Pete laid out a interesting plan in his earlier remarks, where he would fill his BF's PHYSICAL NEEDS by providing the financial security his BF desires, and in return, his BF agreed to provide the EMOTIONAL NEEDS that Pete desires.

The challenge with this plan is that over time secondary human NEEDS usually start kicking into gear, and

both parties in the relationship start waivoring on their commitment to the PLAN. It's only natural that this would occur through no real falt of either party.  It just mother nature laying her claim.  The boy finds the chore of crawling into bed and performing every night to become more and more burdensome and the farang finds himself even more isolated than he was before he entered into the relationship.  Once this dynamic occurs, the elements of trust and respect are compromised and the polarization in the relationship starts to occur.    



A good test for me when contemplating a LTR is to think about the amount of interest I've had in learning about my BF's life, )e.g., where he grew up, what are his favorite foods, where he went to school, information about his siblings, and yes, even what his favorite color is).  Then, I'll sit back and ask myself how much interest he's had in learning about ME.  If I come to the conclusion that he has showed absolutely no interest whatsoever in knowing ME...then my opinions on this subject will be confirmed.



This is a great topic and a great discussion.  It only shows how similar our desires really are.  Now, if we can just figure out how to make it work.



Hedda...I wouldn't view shiny cars without any dents as an illusion, they're simply shiny cars without any dents.      

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They are big spenders (but as not as much as they used to - they've wised up)

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They haven't"wised up", Maurice, it's just that the money is tighter up there than it was before 1990.

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Not all of us can achieve a partner

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...being in a relationship isn't an achievement. It may be a gift. If you work at it disappointment is guaranteed.

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Well now, do any relationships persist when there's a strong cross-cultural element?  My guess is - not many

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Well now, do any relationships persist when there's a strong cross-cultural element? My guess is - not many

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What nonsense. My father married an Englishwoman!

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Hedda wrote

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Obviously, no one wants to think too much about someone they see for a total of 6 weeks a year; you'd go crazy doing it.

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It's not that obvious to me.  pete1969 doesn't live here and he's fretting with the best

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We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan