Thanks Billy. I wasn't aware that Thai boys just need a good slapping around now and again to keep them in line.



Maurice, on your last post, I disagree with just about everything you say.



I wonder how many people on this Board would agree with your assertion that the greatest majority of Thai men are willfully trying to cheat every farang they meet? It does not sound like many Thai men I know. Sure, I have met a few bad apples, but the majority of Thai men I know truly have the best of intentions when they hook up with a farang.  



I also think that often a Thai will side with a farang over another Thai. My Thai friends will tell me in a heartbeat if they think a boy is bad or if they think another Thai is trying to cheat me. Hell, even my bf's friends will admonish him in front of me if they think he is treating me poorly.



As to Thais and Westerners having the same cultural standards for being in love and for honesty, I am at a loss. The two cultures are so obviously different in regards to those two things that it floors me that someone who presents themselves as knowledgeable about Thais can say otherwise. You may wish it to be true that romantic love and honesty are valued the same the world over so that you can stay faithful to what your mama taught you, but wish in one hand and shit in the other....



You know people all over the world end up in relationships like you describe in your post. A relationship can start out with both parties having the best of intentions, but it can end up with familiarity breeding a comfort level that allows for both parties to stop trying so hard, or for them to realize they might not like the other person as much as they thought, or to where they feel okay fighting more, or asking for more, or even getting frustrated more easily. And many people endure in these relationships due to love or a hope that things might get better. It is not endemic to LOS.  



What is different is that most gay Thai/farang relationships involve MONEY. So, when these relationships end up as most gay relationships all over the world end up (over), then people can scream user at the Thai and victim at the farang because the Thai boy took the farang's freely offered money and then had the gall to not live with him happily ever after. It seems the worst sort of hypocrisy because a victim emerged only because money changed hands. Had it been a "normal" relationship (as the farang insisted it be all along), then both would be simple victims of a failed relationship. Either we set rules up front and state that we expect our money to buy us something (happily ever after), or we don't and not cry victim at the end.



You know for every farang victim with a broken heart and dashed dreams, I can probably point you to at least 100 Thai men with a broken heart and dashed dreams at the hand of a farang. Such is life and relationships, especially when two cultures and two human beings with human failings and human feelings collide.



Pete        

The most significant factor of "age gap" doesn't seem to be getting its fair share of focus in this discussion.



Almost every person participating in this thread keeps referring to "Thai Men", when in fact, the vast majority of Thai/Farang relationships fall within the context of "Thai Boys."  Meaning the farang is old enough to be the boys father, or in some cases, grandfather...or even great grandfather...it's sad when you really think about it, but at the same time, a bit humorous.  



You guys can continue to rationalize, minimize, de-focus or intellectualize this subject till hell freezes over, but the reality of the situation won't change.  When it comes to a Thai boys true desire for a relationship, especially when you're considering the components of sex and love, a Thai boy wants someone who was at least born in the same epoch, and that's the bottom-line.  It's not my bottom-line mind you...it's called REALITY.  



Pattayagay is right, 99% of the boys we all cherish have Thai boyfriends, and why wouldn't they.  Better yet, why shouldn't they.



Falling in love with the boy from our dreams is the easy part, but keeping things in a proper perspective is sometimes very challenging...a fierce and relentless competition between a mans inner most desires and his wisdom.



Lau Ta Khun....  













The physical and emotional needs of a Thai person aren't any different than a farangs.  

the evolution of ideas you see on this board as newcomers to Thailand become more seasoned veterans, and the reality of getting emotionally mugged by a kid 30 years younger than you starts to sink in, but not heal. We are strangers in paradise here, but this eden has its share of devils too. I suspect that Maurice has quite capably captured the essence of the dark side of this venture, but men in love could hardly be expected to ever acknowldge that.

 

I think that mauRICE stayed a long time in Thailand and knows many things about the subject. (Very interesting post !) Anyway, I am sure that every farang believes that his boyfriend is the best one (because he loves him) ... (I believed this too ... ), do you believe that every thai-boyfriend is really thinking the same about his farang ? hmmm !

As (old - for some of us) farang, we can provide to our BF 1) a better (easier ?) life, 2) respect, 3) love ...

I know that many asian people told you that age is not so important, but I think that they would prefer younger farang. (but most of the time, young farangs are not so rich and will not loose his head so easily ... I saw many times boys speaking with some young farangfriends : "Free for you !"

I don't say, Farang cannot meet LOVE with BF in Thailand but we have to be lucid.

    

Personally, I find it interesting when people do not think one can ask a question and then not enter into debate and discussion on the answers. Sort of like being told by your teacher: "Sit down and shut up because I have answered your question, and there will be no discussion on the answer no matter how flawed you think (know) the answer to be".



I posted this question because I know there are many on this thread that have been in LT relationships with a Thai (hell, even our High Priestess of relationship doom-and-gloom herself has admitted to being in a LT relationship). It came from a comment from American Teacher about the ups and downs of his LT relationship and some remarks from John, Dodger, and Colmx about the challenges of theirs. I wanted to know what were some of the elements that made these relationships work for the time that they did (and many of them are still working).



We certainly all see enough on why relationships do not work, but very little is ever posted (or written anywhere) on what works in various Thai/farang relationships.



Interestingly, ever time anyone tries to start a thread on the more positive elements of Thai/farang relationships, the cynics attack with all the ferocity of the Death Star. Not matter how politely the insults are put (and I am sorry, but basically stating that my Thai lover and my Thai friends are bread crumbs from upper crust Thai society and that they view me as the bottom of the food chain and just want to cruelly use me, IS an insult), it is still an insult.  



When the cynics paint a picture of those of us in relationships of our Thai boyfriends as greedy users and of us as naive fools, then I am not going to roll over and and meekly accept their arguments, nor am I going to apologize to them because I am in love with a Thai man (and my bf is a 24 year old MAN, not a child, and I am a far cry from his benevolent uncle, and I feel creepy at the implication therein).



I personally think those of us on this Board who are in relationships often present the most balanced views of Thai relationships and society because we see both the challenges and the rewards of Thai/farang relationships. We know and have lived both sides of the coin. I have certainly made enough of my own comments about the challenges in such relationships. I think cynics are failed romantics, and I don't want to add to their ranks by not talking about both the good and the bad, but we focus so much on the bad that we often forget that there is good, and that some relationships do work.



Yes Virginia (or Hedda and Maurice), there is a Dark Side. Some people get hurt, and some people get ripped off. However (may the force be with you), there are thousands of Thai/farang relationships that are successful over a period of time. The question on the table is what are some things that make these relationships successful.



Pete          

pete1969 wrote

Quote:

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there are thousands of Thai/farang relationships that are successful over a period of time

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And the evidence for this assertion is ....??

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We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Oh Hedda, I agree with your post almost entirely, and you make my argument for me. Yes, the majority of gay relationships the world over fail in the long term. I have already said that. So, why should those of us in Thai/farang relationships piss and moan about being victimized by Thai men when our relationships fail?  My assertion is that we cannot demonetize Thai men because they take our money and then the relationship fails.



That is the hypocrisy I mentioned earlier. Thai men are no more at fault and no worse than the farang in these relationships--plenty of blame to go around.  We farang just want to be victims because we spent our hard earned money and then are surprised when our relationships turn out like most gay relationships around the world. And look at Maurice's posts again, Hedda dear: he uses a very broad brush to paint all Thai men in bad terms and nowhere argues that some Thai/farang relationships are successful or that many (most, in my opinion) Thai gay and bi men are decent and good human beings. Yep, I call it cynical or worse.



But some relationships work for one year, two years, ten years, a lifetime. To answer the Colonel, of course thousands of such relationships last for a period of a year or more. We have many on this list, and I can tell you of a couple of dozen more that I personally know about. Do you really think that in the past 30 years that thousands of such relationships have not endured for some time (I use a one year figure because that seems a lifetime in gay relationships).



What are some reasons these longer term-relationships last?



Pete    

... is now circumscribed to "a year" in the context of "long-term" relationships.  That is a complete debauch of any meaning, although I see there's some pathetic excuse about a year being a lifetime in a gay context!!!  More special pleading for gays.  When DavidExCaledon cites the 10- to 20-year relationships, that's a long-term relationship.  In my view any relationship that ends after a year cannot be described as a long-term one, and if the intention was that it be long term then it's a failure, not a success

---

We are each entitled to our own opinion but no one is entitled to his own facts - Daniel Patrick Moynihan

Dodger was probably close to the mark when he commented

Quote:

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The most significant factor of "age gap" doesn't seem to be getting its fair share of focus in this discussion.

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There are obviously some exceptions but generally we seem to be dealing with an age difference of at least 20 to 30 or more years.  That would surely create virtually identical problems and attitudes with the boy next door.



Add to that age difference factors including the person being from a different continent, language group, religion etc, leave alone socio-economic disparities.



Is it REALLY so surprising that these relationships are high-maintenance and/or short-lived?      

Pete,



In an effort to answer the question you asked earlier in this thread..."What makes a LTR successful". IMHO, it's the farang who picks the ugly one....half kidding, but couldn't resist.



On a more serious note, I see COMPROMISE as being the adhesive that bonds these long-term relationships together, not unlike any other successful relationship between two people, regardless if they're str8 or gay. You would understand this much better than I, as you and your boy special have seemingly accomplished this for which I commend you, or more appropriately stated, envy one.



Believe me, my comments about the REALITY of LOS and the dynamics of Thai/farang relationships are intended to expose the TRUTH as I see it, with no motivation at all to be a cynic.  



Pete, I have a lot more questions than I have knowledge on this subject, but I have to be honest with you.  In the past five years I've witnessed hundreds of Thai/farang interactions, if not more, and only ONCE, witnessed a true, honest-to-God, take-it-to-the-bank, successful LTR...Only ONCE!  I hear about it all the time - but rarely see it.



If you know of thousands of successful LTR's, congratulations, and I hope one day I can fit in that mass, but until then, I think I'll just continue to enjoy my friendships and romantic adventures as a Butterfly...I don't care much for the ugly ones, and frankly, I don't like the odds.



            







 

For God's sake (and I am not even religious!)...



A debate is a great thing, but we have to be careful to continually speak about the "I" and not the "We."



I know there is a lot of wisdom on this board, and I know there is a lot of experience as well.  However, one person's failure can be another's success; one person's perception can be another's dispute.



For ME (notice the me!), my experiences in Thailand have been broad, but nothing could have prepared me for my relationship with my husband.  I disagree that all of you can label us as "farang money, thai support" and I disagree that all Thai Men are alike.



Factors such as personality, age, occupation, upbringing and YES, even love play a significant factor.  All the failures thrown about are real, all the deceptions valid -- but don't forget that people are people and inevitably can rise above the expected.



Go to a go-go bar, and get a go-go boy.  Spend a night, and get a good romp in the hay.  Pay lots of money from a foreign land and get a boy-servant.  Strive for more, give more -- and like anywhere in the world, if you are lucky -- you might find love.



I have.  And no matter what is said here, that is the way it is.  It can happen.  It may not.  But it very well may.



Be open to all the possibilities.



-Chris  

I agree that sex seems to be the main reason many relationships break up. At least that has been the main reason for the end of my previous relationships.

I have been single for a long time now and enjoy having sex with who ever turns me on that day and I can convince to play.

I have started two relationships with Thai guys in Pattaya but it has not lasted mainly due to me only being here one month and then gone for 5 months. Now that I am planning to stay 4 months at a time and only be gone one or two months it should be easier to develop more in depth relationships other than just sexual fun and going out together for a week or two.

I am in no hurry to lose my freedom however which how I view being single. I do have several close friends who are Thai that have lasted several years. These are mainly previous sexual relationships that turned to friendships.

Dodger, not cynical at all to say. As for myself, I can probably think of 10 LT relationships I have seen first hand in LOS, another 20 or so I have heard about on this Board, and at least another 20 my Thai friends are/have been involved in or that their friends are involved in now.  As I am fairly new to LOS and mostly based in Phuket, I would think that my experience might extrapolate to thousands of such LT relationships. I do use a low threshold for my definition of LT relationship, merely because I think if a farang and Thai held a relationship together for at least a year, then they did something right for at least a short time, especially when compared with the total non starts of the greatest majority of Thai/farang "relationships." All-in-all just my experience, appreciating that yours has been vastly different.



To answer the question posed in this thread, as for my own relationship, it is going on 10 months, and I think it could last for some time. I base that on the simple fact that I take good care of my bf, he is 24 and wants to be away from the bar scene, and he is smart enough to realize that I am probably his last, best shot at the brass ring.



We do have very good communication, and we compromise on many things. My ground rules are pretty simple: we have to communicate every day, and we have to see other as often as possible (and he has to be totally available when I am in LOS). His one ground rule that I made for him becasue I know the importance of it to him is that I have to provide security in terms of a monthly allowance (which I am hard and fast on in terms of the amount)as well as provide some sense of a better future (and we have mapped out a bit of a three-to-five year plan together that includes education for him and his two sisters, family home renovations, some land and a house together, and maybe some rubber trees and cows for mom and dad).  I think us both having stated expectations and goals in regards to money make the relationship much better and less stressful. (And no, flamers--the hateful kind, not the gay-burn-so-bright-kind--,he never made money a stated condition of being my bf, nor ever even hinted that he would not be with me if I did not provide it.)  



It also helps that we are both genuinely nice people with good hearts, that we are only ten years a part in age, that he speaks good English and has lived in Europe before and knows my culture to some extent, that he does not lie very much or very well, that we both understand it might be a very long time before we live together full time and are willing to endure a long distance relationship, that we have an open relationship, and that we really do have a good time when we are together. Right now we meet one another's needs with a good balance of communication without suffocating one another. We are learning to trust each other more every day. We have good days and bad (and some very bad), but we are both relatively happy. As time goes by, our expectations actually become fewer, and we put less demands on one another.



I have shared this for what it is worth to anyone and to share my own answer to the question I posed. What works for me and my bf might only work for us and no one else, and I understand that very well. As Chris just pointed out, every person and every relationship is different. I did not post this for anyone's validation or to prove my relationship is different and not doomed for failure.



That said, I do think the bf and I have a good shot at something LT. But there certainly are challenges (mostly different cultures and the distance) that may not stand the test of time. Even if we do break up at some point, I think and hope we might be friends for a very long time. Who knows what the future holds?



Pete



PS-It is also significant to me that in the past four years, the bf and I have both been without a relationship, have each had sexual encounters and flings with many men, and in one another have found for the first time in many years someone we really want to have as a bf.  



  



 

if I had 1000 Baht for every farang who ever thought this:



"...I think it could last for some time. I base that on the simple fact that I take good care of my bf, he is 24 and wants to be away from the bar scene, and he is smart enough to realize that I am probably his last, best shot at the brass ring."



Indeed, my guess is that every farang who ever thought he was involved in a genuine realtionship here, no matter how you define it, thought exactly the same thing. It's what we used to call on the old board: the Moulin Rouge choice between the rich maharajah or the poor poet. Place your bets.







 

I agree that monogamy is not a natural state. But I am not sure that most Thai guys have been around long enough to know that they can have a "real" relationship that is not totally monogamous.



I think that 'most' Thai guys (and I most certainly do NOT presume to speak for anyone's particular bf) agree to an "open" relationship (ie one allowing 'meaningless flings') with a farang for one of several reasons:

1 Because he has no power to disagree. This applies mainly to those relationships based on the dubious mantra, 'he who has the gold makes the rules'.

2 Because he doesn't really love the farang, and wants his own freedom.

3 Because he interprets it as sign that the farang doesn't love him 100%, and he accepts what he perceives to be that reality.



Who generally proposes the 'open' relationship, the Thai or the farang ? And why do farangs propose open relationships to their Thai bfs ? Why do dogs lick their balls ? Same answer.



How many successful long term gay relationships do you think the average gay Thai knows of ? They see as few 'real', successful long term Thai-farang relationships as we do.



But gay Thai guys that we come into contact with don't have the same knowledge of western gay relationship dynamics as we do. Their primary relationship 'models' are their parents (often faithful mother and philandering father), those involving the two-/three-/four-timing money boy, and the 'butterfly' falang (the most common species ?).



In each of those cases, sex with another partner outside the relationship is indicative of a less than 100% committment to their supposed primary partner. So why would Thai guys perceive 'open' relationships as being 'real' ?



Having said that, I do hope that one day the bf and I might understand each other well enough to negotiate a more open relationship. But I am not confident that I could do that without hurting him now. And I don't expect him to propose it any time soon. Until we have that conversation, what I have now is so much better than the butterfly life, so I won't risk it. I have never given him the slightest hint that I am interested in anyone other than him; in fact I am careful not to. He does joke about various western male pop stars that he would like to bed. But unfortunately for him, that ain't gonna happen. And he doesn't really like Thai guys.



And of course there are other risks of an open relationship ... the possibility that one partner might actually meet someone they prefer ... and STDs.



So monogamy may be the death of many marriages, but I'm not sure that open relationships are any more successful.